Why are there such problems with ZClasses, when they were written by intelligent people? I think I now know the answer to that. I am pretty sure that the permissions mechanism makes ZClasses have propertysheets, so that access to variables can share a permission. I am pretty sure that the Products structure makes ZClasses have their create methods at the same level as the ZClass, rather than 1 level below the Z Class in a class methods folder. So what do I have to do to fix ZClasses? What I am thinking of doing is taking the newest release of Zope 2, and tossing out permissions, and tossing out the Products piece, and then putting in place what I need to do fast through the web development. I will put in place a simpler permissions system. I will miss Formulator and Localizer, because they are tied in with the existing permissions mechanisms. But they should migrate over easily. I will probably break everything else in sight in the process. Maybe I need to keep the Products piece, and put in place NewProducts or something like that. But I will have a very nice upgrade path for ZClass based applications. And why do I keep getting flamed? There is some world view that does not like my world view. Why are permissions so broken in Zope2. They are way too complex. Why has no one released Zope 2 with cleaner permissions? Because it breaks everything? Thank you to all the people who recommended that I use CMF or Python Classes, or Zope 3. None of those are quite what I want and need. ZClasses is close to what I need, I just need to fix it. Regards Christopher Lozinski