Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-1-25 10:21 +0100:
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On 25.01.2009 9:27 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-1-21 14:55 +0100:
... TARGET=Python 2.6.X ACCEPTABLE=Python 2.5 Python 2.4.X would be basically not acceptable but could be used at your own risk using the --with-python option. ... - - removing ZClasses completely
But hopefully provided by a separate package, instead.
Unless someone volunteers for doing a separate package: no.
I plan to provide such a package as "dm.ZClasses" or (maybe) "Zope2.ZClasses" -- of course with some complaints against the Zope release management in the documentation: * cutting away useful features without any serious need * lacking commitment wrt backward compatibility * enforcing philosophical opinions (applications should be created programmatically not via configuration only (such as with ZClasses)) -- Dieter
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25.01.2009 12:56 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-1-25 10:21 +0100:
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On 25.01.2009 9:27 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-1-21 14:55 +0100:
... TARGET=Python 2.6.X ACCEPTABLE=Python 2.5 Python 2.4.X would be basically not acceptable but could be used at your own risk using the --with-python option. ... - - removing ZClasses completely But hopefully provided by a separate package, instead. Unless someone volunteers for doing a separate package: no.
I plan to provide such a package as "dm.ZClasses" or (maybe) "Zope2.ZClasses"
Thanks for stepping up.
-- of course with some complaints against the Zope release management in the documentation:
* cutting away useful features without any serious need
* lacking commitment wrt backward compatibility
We had this discussion about the future of ZClasses already several time. Point taken but I have little interest discussing the same topic over and over again. ZClasses have been deprecated in Zope 2.10 and now they are gone. Users of ZClasses have enough options and a lot of time for modernizing their apps. We don't want and need to support any cruft until doomsday. Andreas - -- ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG - Charlottenstr. 37/1 - 72070 Tübingen - Germany Web: www.zopyx.com - Email: info@zopyx.com - Phone +49 - 7071 - 793376 Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, Handelsregister A 381535 Geschäftsführer/Gesellschafter: ZOPYX Limited, Birmingham, UK - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ E-Publishing, Python, Zope & Plone development, Consulting -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkl8VrQACgkQCJIWIbr9KYwkLwCfeF4Vc/9DxqC1YmL1yg30JrsJ UvsAoJg8SzglgYOz0RykexTOozQ0ysIk =vlFW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:56, Dieter Maurer <dieter@handshake.de> wrote:
I plan to provide such a package as "dm.ZClasses" or (maybe) "Zope2.ZClasses" -- of course with some complaints against the Zope release management in the documentation:
* cutting away useful features without any serious need
* lacking commitment wrt backward compatibility
* enforcing philosophical opinions (applications should be created programmatically not via configuration only (such as with ZClasses))
Oh, please come off it. You have checkin rights and could have stepped up to maintain the code. This is not about enforcing philosophical choices, this is about being pragmatic. If the feature was truely useful, more developers would be maintaining and fixing it. Obviously the complexity of keeping it working is outweighing it's usefulness. -- Martijn Pieters
Martijn Pieters wrote at 2009-1-25 13:29 +0100:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:56, Dieter Maurer <dieter@handshake.de> wrote:
I plan to provide such a package as "dm.ZClasses" or (maybe) "Zope2.ZClasses" -- of course with some complaints against the Zope release management in the documentation:
* cutting away useful features without any serious need
* lacking commitment wrt backward compatibility
* enforcing philosophical opinions (applications should be created programmatically not via configuration only (such as with ZClasses))
Oh, please come off it. You have checkin rights and could have stepped up to maintain the code.
The last necessity to do something with ZClasses was for Zope 2.8. Then, Jim did the work. There was no need now to ditch ZClasses. For me, it looks like hostility towards building applications via menues rather than programming.
This is not about enforcing philosophical choices, this is about being pragmatic. If the feature was truely useful, more developers would be maintaining and fixing it. Obviously the complexity of keeping it working is outweighing it's usefulness.
I do not see something "obvious" here. I do not know how much work Jim has invested for Zope 2.8 but I am almost sure that other efforts since then have at most been in the order of hours (probably nothing at all). You will now get an externally maintained ZClasses implementation and I am quite confident that the necessary effort will be small (though larger of course then when it remained part of Zope). If you like I report back or even better I document it. -- Dieter
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25.01.2009 20:09 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Martijn Pieters wrote at 2009-1-25 13:29 +0100:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:56, Dieter Maurer <dieter@handshake.de> wrote:
I plan to provide such a package as "dm.ZClasses" or (maybe) "Zope2.ZClasses" -- of course with some complaints against the Zope release management in the documentation:
* cutting away useful features without any serious need
* lacking commitment wrt backward compatibility
* enforcing philosophical opinions (applications should be created programmatically not via configuration only (such as with ZClasses)) Oh, please come off it. You have checkin rights and could have stepped up to maintain the code.
The last necessity to do something with ZClasses was for Zope 2.8. Then, Jim did the work.
There was no need now to ditch ZClasses.
For me, it looks like hostility towards building applications via menues rather than programming.
Please stop the discussion. The majority of Zope developers considers the ZClasses programming model as not up2date and not flexible enough when it comes to extensibility and scalability. That's why we don't want ZClasses being part of Zope 2 anymore. This has been our message for years. ZClasses are deprecated since Zope 2.10 and now it's time to say goodbye.
This is not about enforcing philosophical choices, this is about being pragmatic. If the feature was truely useful, more developers would be maintaining and fixing it. Obviously the complexity of keeping it working is outweighing it's usefulness.
I do not see something "obvious" here.
I do not know how much work Jim has invested for Zope 2.8 but I am almost sure that other efforts since then have at most been in the order of hours (probably nothing at all).
You will now get an externally maintained ZClasses implementation and I am quite confident that the necessary effort will be small (though larger of course then when it remained part of Zope). If you like I report back or even better I document it.
All ZClasses user will appreciate your work as we do stepping in but you should accept that your opinion on ZClasses does not reflect the majority of the other Zope developers. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkl8u1IACgkQCJIWIbr9KYzecwCg4UKyjiM03R529qZ397OU4QZB Pt0An3udA2BBvRvvG3z/1HR4+OQfvcID =xOLE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-1-25 20:19 +0100:
... Please stop the discussion. The majority of Zope developers considers the ZClasses programming model as not up2date and not flexible enough when it comes to extensibility and scalability. That's why we don't want ZClasses being part of Zope 2 anymore.
We see clearly: philosophical opinions -- not "complexity of keeping it working".... -- Dieter
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25.01.2009 20:34 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-1-25 20:19 +0100:
... Please stop the discussion. The majority of Zope developers considers the ZClasses programming model as not up2date and not flexible enough when it comes to extensibility and scalability. That's why we don't want ZClasses being part of Zope 2 anymore.
We see clearly: philosophical opinions -- not "complexity of keeping it working"....
The ZClasses discussion is over - point. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkl9QX4ACgkQCJIWIbr9KYyWOgCfeBYI+75faITRfzSGH4DFGgle uUsAoKGx8Oq0UyXk23oDAANvmK3DdD2m =gsrE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (3)
-
Andreas Jung -
Dieter Maurer -
Martijn Pieters