Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
Hi Andy, Thanks for you kind explanation. I may have been premature in my assessment the new Zopezen.org. I see your point on the various roles individuals can play in the open-source world. I also believe that by you embracing plone so deeply gives the project much more weight and crediblity.
Firstly lets address your subject. ZopeZen.org is slower. Why is that?
- There is a lot more work being done to render a page in Plone - There is less caching being done, I havent optimized it as much as the old site was - The BSD memory leak in Python 2.1.3 is not helping - More html, javascript and css is being used <snip>
Excuses and issues that need to be addressed no doubt. These are the things that end up making most everything better in the long run. I also need to mention that it's not all that slow to me. I'm using your DTML based cmfZen for one of my sites, instead of plone because of ZPT speed. I liken the situation back to the early days of Music Television(MTV) When they were small, new and up and coming. Their motto was simple "I want my MTV" hence "I want my Zope". You can have all the other channels, ie CMF,Plone, MMMSkins, Transwarp, but what really drove the success of the Music video was MTV. I hope the analogy helps those to see that Zope can be the MTV of the CMS Market. But with some good people switching channels, will Zope still end up a major player in the market? Unless you read the story "Swimmy" you may not understand my meaning that in this case the community might not win by being a bunch of little fish pretending to be a big fish. All in all I trust andy's commitment, and I look forward to the next release of zopezen.
So your suggestion is instead of not using Plone and ZPT in the real world to see how they perform, I should just concentrate on working on ZPT?
No, it just seems you've even committed your efforts to plone/ZPT. Seems to me you went from DTML-> Plone/ZPT. You know a while back there was even talk to move some of the ZPT functionality to DTML. Now that you've embraced Plone so much that It will be even longer before there are decent instructions on how to get a binary build of the core Zope on windows ;-) <snip>
The Plone project brings people to Zope, it puts Plone in front of users. In the end that means improvements all down the line back to Zope.
I beg to differ with you on this. Plone brings people to Plone. And just as much as the other commercial/open-source projects sought to bring users to Zope, those projects are long gone. ie world pilot, spoke.net, metapublisher, etc. They don't even share the same audience it's been said. I'll say again, I think Zope is playing Swimmy when it should be playing MTV and setting the bar for other Content systems. I hope I don't offend anyone. Like I said I agree with Andy. I think we all play an invaluable role in this. I've lost many a jobs because I've insisted on using Zope, That's how much I believe in Zope. Call me a fool, but it is Zope that I believe in, and time spent on anythings else makes me nervous. Whatever you do let's KISS. You know Keep it simple .....! Btw how many parts are you going to have to publish for us to understand Plone? I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that one killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the one vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday. Thanks again for your time. Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Thanks for you kind explanation. I may have been premature in my assessment the new Zopezen.org.
Well the proof is the in the pudding, give me a bit of time and we'll see.
But with some good people switching channels, will Zope still end up a major player in the market?
Unfortunately from my forays into the non-Zope (or Plone) into the CMS market I dont think Zope is anywhere near a major player. I just don't understand why working on Plone is considered switching channels. When I developed the CMFZen skin was that switching channels? Is Squishdot? Whenever I speak to anyone about Plone I mention Zope in the first sentence.
It will be even longer before there are decent instructions on how to get a binary build of the core Zope on windows ;-)
I know how to do this now, its actually quite simple. The burden is now on me to write something up :(
Btw how many parts are you going to have to publish for us to understand Plone?
Probably less, since I believe ZopeZen is now simpler, there is about 50% less code. However that could be me understanding CMF and Zope more.
And just as much as the other commercial/open-source projects sought to bring users to Zope, those projects are long gone. ie world pilot, spoke.net, metapublisher, etc.
Perhaps, but how will you know until you try? There's more than one reason a project goes under and in some ways Plone is quite different.
I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that one killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the one vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday.
I won't deny it. I believe I can sell Plone and I'm not sure I can sell Zope as easily. Its a simple fact that I have to sell what the clients want: if I spend all my time concetrating on Zope innards, I doubt I'll be able to pay the mortgage. In the last 3 months 75% of my clients have come to me for Plone, in one case I steered them to a solution in Zope because I felt it was a more appropriate solution. -- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca
On Thursday, Oct 3, 2002, at 07:14 Europe/Paris, Andy McKay wrote:
I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that one killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the one vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday.
I won't deny it. I believe I can sell Plone and I'm not sure I can sell Zope as easily. Its a simple fact that I have to sell what the clients want: if I spend all my time concetrating on Zope innards, I doubt I'll be able to pay the mortgage. In the last 3 months 75% of my clients have come to me for Plone, in one case I steered them to a solution in Zope because I felt it was a more appropriate solution.
I agree with Andy. Zope is a tool. Things like Silva and Plone are products. The purpose of Zope is to allow people to build things like Silva or Plone, or things quite different (perhaps custom to their own needs) quickly. And frankly, tools don't sell themselves. People want to see glitz. You could argue that Zope should be the project/brand with the glitz. But you're now limiting people's choices, because you're turning Zope into a product rather than a tool. Back to the X11/KDE argument. Ever looked at an X11 server running w/out a window manager? That's Zope. But it's wrong to "fix the problem" by eliminating X11 and merging it with KDE, because then the Gnome (and windowmaker, and sawfish, and...) people would be unhappy. Layers provide choice. Sure, they also provide a bit of confusion, but this cost is far outweighed by the benefits. Especially in open source, where people participate because they want to participate, not because they have no other choice. --Paul
participants (3)
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Andy McKay -
James Johnson -
Paul Everitt