Re: [Zope-dev] Fishbowl not problem centered enough
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:24:40 -0600, Casey Duncan <cduncan@kaivo.com> wrote:
"Jay, Dylan" wrote:
Fishbowl is a great idea but it seems to be that its solution focused rather than problem focus. Perhaps if you had a page that listed all the problems with zope or problems that need to be solved that isn't as easy as it could be with zope.
I think it would be helpful to have a "big picture", with goals and objectives, into which to fit the pieces - would that address the kinds of things you're talking about?
The fishbowl is also "pull" technology, and so it is time-consuming to keep up with the developments. I personally find it to be cumbersome, limiting and not really conducive to actually getting stuff done.
I've really wanted to enable people to subscribe to notification about changes to wiki pages, and to notifications about additions to the wiki. Unfortunately, i didn't have time to get to that in the WikiForNow project. As soon as i'm clear form a current project i *may* be able to concentrate on at least formulating a reasonable quick-and-dirty way to do notifications, and getting it done for the short term. Whether or not it's me doing it, i think we're going to be bringing more attention to these issues.
I know there has been talk of opening up the Zope CVS to outside contributions, I personally think this is long overdue. In order for a community development forum to really work, this would have to happen.
This actually is high in our priorities, but the key players have been swamped. From a discussion w/paul recently i think we'll be getting some more attention to doing this, very soon.
I just see lots of solutions many of which attack some of the same problems and no clear way to get those people comunicating and making informed trade-offs
I think the fishbowl, as it is, is a good significant move towards exposing the process and enabling involvement. Mailling lists help conduct the collaboration. However, more is needed to facilitate that process - selectively enabling checkins, doing notifications to make tracking of developments manageable, fleshing out the context (problems/big picture). It's an incremental process, and we may have lapsed too long in progressing on those increments - perhaps we need to chart out some of these critical pieces, so we can better formulate how they're being attacked - and maybe enable more help with the increments. I hope to have expore this some, internally, and have more to say about it next week. Ken Manheimer klm@digicool.com
Ken Manheimer <klm@digicool.com> writes:
WikiForNow project. As soon as i'm clear form a current project i *may* be able to concentrate on at least formulating a reasonable quick-and-dirty way to do notifications, and getting it done for the
Hey Ken - since you used the magic words quick-and-dirty - search for PageSubscribers at http://zwiki.org/zwikidir/ZWikiPage.py . I'm using it now in a client project. Comments (not edits) are cc'd to email addresses listed on the page. I'm not sure it would handle large lists of zope.org subscribers (but I'd like to find out). I'm very interested in closing the loop, so you can reply to these and have your mail appended to the page. And in fact I'm about to do some work on this so if you or anyone else gets into it, let's share notes. -Simon
Ken Manheimer wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:24:40 -0600, Casey Duncan <cduncan@kaivo.com> wrote:
"Jay, Dylan" wrote:
Fishbowl is a great idea but it seems to be that its solution focused rather than problem focus. Perhaps if you had a page that listed all the problems with zope or problems that need to be solved that isn't as easy as it could be with zope.
I think it would be helpful to have a "big picture", with goals and objectives, into which to fit the pieces - would that address the kinds of things you're talking about?
The fishbowl is also "pull" technology, and so it is time-consuming to keep up with the developments. I personally find it to be cumbersome, limiting and not really conducive to actually getting stuff done.
I've really wanted to enable people to subscribe to notification about changes to wiki pages, and to notifications about additions to the wiki. Unfortunately, i didn't have time to get to that in the WikiForNow project. As soon as i'm clear form a current project i *may* be able to concentrate on at least formulating a reasonable quick-and-dirty way to do notifications, and getting it done for the short term. Whether or not it's me doing it, i think we're going to be bringing more attention to these issues.
"Opening" the development process itself could enhance the resources available to you and solve this problem. However, I have more issues with wikis than just the notification aspect. I think they limit accessibility of data because they are really just big globs of text. I personally feel the whole fishbowl concept has some flaws both in technical and administrative implementation. I for one don't exactly know how to proceed beyond a certain point in the fishbowl. Some of my proposals for example end with some thing like this from DC: "I think we need to address this a different way, however I don't have time to say exactly how right now". OK, so now what?
I know there has been talk of opening up the Zope CVS to outside contributions, I personally think this is long overdue. In order for a community development forum to really work, this would have to happen.
This actually is high in our priorities, but the key players have been swamped. From a discussion w/paul recently i think we'll be getting some more attention to doing this, very soon.
I understand, but this is the way to get some more resources on your side in the long run. I for one will shed an entire frustration level with Zope when this happens.
I think the fishbowl, as it is, is a good significant move towards exposing the process and enabling involvement. Mailling lists help conduct the collaboration. However, more is needed to facilitate that process - selectively enabling checkins, doing notifications to make tracking of developments manageable, fleshing out the context (problems/big picture). It's an incremental process, and we may have lapsed too long in progressing on those increments - perhaps we need to chart out some of these critical pieces, so we can better formulate how they're being attacked - and maybe enable more help with the increments.
I agree that the fishbowl is beneficial, if for nothing else than a sounding board for the possible directions of Zope. But, like I mentioned before, I think the community needs more involvement directly with the development of its own tools like the fishbowl. I realize there is a risk to DC of loosing some level of direct control, but I suggest that a democratic development approach although less decisive and centralized is superior to a despotism.
I hope to have expore this some, internally, and have more to say about it next week.
I'll await further developments. -- | Casey Duncan | Kaivo, Inc. | cduncan@kaivo.com `------------------>
participants (3)
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Casey Duncan -
Ken Manheimer -
Simon Michael