Re: [Zope-dev] [Checkins] SVN: zope.dublincore/trunk/ Move test-dependencies to 'extras'.
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Malthe Borch <mborch@gmail.com> wrote:
Log message for revision 90599: Move test-dependencies to 'extras'.
This is a controversial change; can we avoid making changes like this until a policy is agreed upon? The controversy surrounding this has been discussed on zope-dev several times; I don't want to rehash it *right now*, since we all have things we need to get done. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at gmail.com> "Chaos is the score upon which reality is written." --Henry Miller
Fred Drake wrote:
This is a controversial change; can we avoid making changes like this until a policy is agreed upon?
The controversy surrounding this has been discussed on zope-dev several times; I don't want to rehash it *right now*, since we all have things we need to get done.
I didn't know there was a controversy, but I do remember that there was consensus that ``extras_require`` is not the most elegant solution. If you can advise a different way to avoid pulling in ``zope.app.testing`` I'm happy to revert the change; otherwise I think we should live and let live with it since it at the very least does the job. Or just revert the change and let Zope have its many dependencies. \malthe
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Malthe Borch <mborch@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't know there was a controversy, but I do remember that there was consensus that ``extras_require`` is not the most elegant solution.
Oh, there is!
If you can advise a different way to avoid pulling in ``zope.app.testing`` I'm happy to revert the change; otherwise I think we should live and let live with it since it at the very least does the job.
There's no good way to avoid dependencies like zope.app.testing; because that's part of the test environment, the tests won't show whether there are problems when it's removed. If you want to fly what you test, test dependencies can't be eliminated. I'd suggest reverting the change for now. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at gmail.com> "Chaos is the score upon which reality is written." --Henry Miller
Fred Drake wrote:
There's no good way to avoid dependencies like zope.app.testing; because that's part of the test environment, the tests won't show whether there are problems when it's removed. If you want to fly what you test, test dependencies can't be eliminated.
I understand, but this particular dependency pulls in the world, all 76 packages. I'll revert the change; it seems we're about to have a fork the size of the emacs/xemacs conflict, because for projects like repoze.bfg, dependency hell is no longer acceptable. \malthe
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 11:59:24PM +0200, Malthe Borch wrote:
Fred Drake wrote:
There's no good way to avoid dependencies like zope.app.testing; because that's part of the test environment, the tests won't show whether there are problems when it's removed. If you want to fly what you test, test dependencies can't be eliminated.
I understand, but this particular dependency pulls in the world, all 76 packages.
I'll revert the change; it seems we're about to have a fork the size of the emacs/xemacs conflict, because for projects like repoze.bfg, dependency hell is no longer acceptable.
So either let's make zope.app.testing not depend on the whole world, or let's extract the core of zope.app.testing and put it somewhere else (zope.testing?). Marius Gedminas -- Some performers on television appear to be horrible people, but when you finally get to know them in person, they turn out to be even worse. -- Avery
Hi Marius
Betreff: Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope.dublincore/trunk/ Movetest-dependencies to 'extras'.
[...]
I understand, but this particular dependency pulls in the world, all 76 packages.
I'll revert the change; it seems we're about to have a fork the size of the emacs/xemacs conflict, because for projects like repoze.bfg, dependency hell is no longer acceptable.
So either let's make zope.app.testing not depend on the whole world, or let's extract the core of zope.app.testing and put it somewhere else (zope.testing?).
+1 Yes, we need both, We need to move some parts from zope.app.testing to the right packages and we need to remove zope.app.testing as a general dependency from some packages. Regards Roger Ineichen
Marius Gedminas -- Some performers on television appear to be horrible people, but when you finally get to know them in person, they turn out to be even worse. -- Avery
Marius Gedminas wrote:
So either let's make zope.app.testing not depend on the whole world,
+1
or let's extract the core of zope.app.testing
+10
and put it somewhere else (zope.testing?).
-1 cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Hi
Betreff: Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope.dublincore/trunk/ Move test-dependenciesto 'extras'.
Fred Drake wrote:
There's no good way to avoid dependencies like zope.app.testing; because that's part of the test environment, the tests won't show whether there are problems when it's removed. If you want to fly what you test, test dependencies can't be eliminated.
I understand, but this particular dependency pulls in the world, all 76 packages.
I'll revert the change; it seems we're about to have a fork the size of the emacs/xemacs conflict, because for projects like repoze.bfg, dependency hell is no longer acceptable.
Yes, I agree, The same is true for our z3c.* based projects. Regards Roger Ineichen
\malthe
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Fred Drake wrote:
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Malthe Borch <mborch@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't know there was a controversy, but I do remember that there was consensus that ``extras_require`` is not the most elegant solution.
Oh, there is!
If you can advise a different way to avoid pulling in ``zope.app.testing`` I'm happy to revert the change; otherwise I think we should live and let live with it since it at the very least does the job.
There's no good way to avoid dependencies like zope.app.testing; because that's part of the test environment, the tests won't show whether there are problems when it's removed. If you want to fly what you test, test dependencies can't be eliminated.
I don't want to have to run the tests for 'zope.dublincore' in *every* system which uses it: I want to test 'zope.dublincore' in isolation, and then use a well-tested, "known good" version of it in other applications, which may not need or want the 'zope.app.testing' dependency. If zc.buildout would grow support for either 'tests_require' or a special 'extras_require' key, you could still have what you want without forcing it on the rest of the world. Tres. - -- =================================================================== Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIuIjO+gerLs4ltQ4RAq7MAJ0QU/OZGj+paO1dqp/iIsQ832UyfwCfd4ch UmvWo2czCKJsVW5VlMz9pt8= =W9vk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Fred Drake wrote:
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Malthe Borch <mborch@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't know there was a controversy, but I do remember that there was consensus that ``extras_require`` is not the most elegant solution.
Oh, there is!
If you can advise a different way to avoid pulling in ``zope.app.testing`` I'm happy to revert the change; otherwise I think we should live and let live with it since it at the very least does the job.
There's no good way to avoid dependencies like zope.app.testing; because that's part of the test environment, the tests won't show whether there are problems when it's removed. If you want to fly what you test, test dependencies can't be eliminated.
BTW, that phrase is disingeuous: as one who worked on testing one of the earliest fly-by-wire fighter jets[1] (long ago in a galaxy far far away), I can assure you that the plane did *not* have all its various test jigs attatched to it as it rolled down the runway. - Before assembly, components get tested in isolation using whatever jigs were appropriate, with testing done at each "rollup" of a new assembly. - After integration into the airframe, the set of tests possible were vastly reduced: a minimal set of tests could be done in a preflight check without external equipment, but any failure in such a test resulted in pulling the indicated part for diagnosis using dedicated equipment. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Falcon#Fly-by-wire Tres. - -- =================================================================== Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIuWiZ+gerLs4ltQ4RAkzBAKCY7ldytq7k9TqaDWljm2gk39DhGQCgl+c9 R+dM/gOr/v/O4f8Ww/xV61o= =Yy63 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi Fred
Betreff: Re: [Checkins] SVN: zope.dublincore/trunk/ Move test-dependenciesto 'extras'.
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Malthe Borch <mborch@gmail.com> wrote:
Log message for revision 90599: Move test-dependencies to 'extras'.
This is a controversial change; can we avoid making changes like this until a policy is agreed upon?
The consensus was to move the testing dependencies to extras_require. We really need to get rid of loading zope.app.testing as a core package for our production applications. install_requires only needs to install what is needed for production. I really like to do the next couple weeks and month some cleanup work and this is a fundamental part.
The controversy surrounding this has been discussed on zope-dev several times; I don't want to rehash it *right now*, since we all have things we need to get done.
come on, that's a real bad answer and will only stop others from doing the right thing for you. We can't take care on everybody if we do cleanup work. And you have always the option to relay on the KGS or other egg versions. Regards Roger Ineichen
On Friday 29 August 2008, Fred Drake wrote:
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Malthe Borch <mborch@gmail.com> wrote:
Log message for revision 90599: Move test-dependencies to 'extras'.
This is a controversial change; can we avoid making changes like this until a policy is agreed upon?
The controversy surrounding this has been discussed on zope-dev several times; I don't want to rehash it *right now*, since we all have things we need to get done.
Last time we discussed it, the conclusion was that it is a necessary evil for now. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter Web Software Design, Development and Training Google me. "Zope Stephan Richter"
participants (7)
-
Chris Withers -
Fred Drake -
Malthe Borch -
Marius Gedminas -
Roger Ineichen -
Stephan Richter -
Tres Seaver