<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> It is the people who are in the trenches who are increasingly being
disaffected by Zope Corp, it seems as if you're not subscribed to
zope-dev, you have no voice, and for most people zope-dev is not an
appropriate forum for them to be subscribed to.
<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>This reminds me of the <FontFamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger>story, <underline>Swimmy</underline> by Leo Leonni http://www.fi.edu/fellows/fellow8/dec98/swimmy.html <FontFamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>. Do you know the story? Now that I've finished the Cisco Academy, I move on to my Oracle training. I plan on using Zope with Oracle, but I'm looking at the fact that oracle has a J2EE Web application server. Why am I using Zope with Oracle again? My impression has been that the elite private "school" zopers have created some fancy terms and algorithms, and have forgotton to be practical. Yeah, it's cool what I *think* Zope can do, and what it's gonna do in the future. Some say Zope needs 10x growth for next year, but I envision 80x growth. I see Zope hanging from the rearview mirror of some VW, or some kid using it, because it also comes with a cool clicker for his bicycle. I think the most beautiful thing next to my wife and kids has got to be Zope 2.5b1. I do enjoy those that sweat the details, but just the sight of Zope with Page templates and session tracking, with example folders that work on win98.... Please, I'm in heaven. I see Zope at 100x, because it should be a standard anyway. I know why I'm using it, and I happen to like the school of Zope fish. Now, go read <underline>Swimmy</underline> if you haven't. It's *Required* reading in the school I'm from. Peace, -James <nofill>
Friends, first thing I want is to express my huge gratitude to have something like Zope and its community. I have read all the all the mail that has been stirred by "that" open letter. I agree very much and I am willing to contribute as much as I can that zope should grow 10x. I found two things missing in the discussion so far that are crucial to attain this goal: - documentation To start using Zope doing something more than trivial is an incredibly frustrating thing. Hunting for the right piece of documentation is very very hard. The community is very helpful I agree readily. However asking it should be the last resort and being forced to use it as an important part of the developement effort is very cumbersome and time consuming. And does not really take the frustration out of the process. Bruce Eckels postings to this list show that even a developer of his statue is prone to the same effect. I am a seasoned programmer that started to deal with Zope exactly one year ago. It is only now that I learn where to look for what piece of information and to decide which one is relevant and which one is not. - translation support Internationalisation is crucial. English in the user interface is just not tolerated in a non English speaking part of the world. It is 10 years ago something like that would have been acceptable. I am from Switzerland where we pride ourselves to be multilingual (6 Million inhabitants 4 major languages, English being the fifth). However nobody would think of having anything like English on a public website. There are a number of efforts towards translation support. However to have any of them to succeed it needs the support of ZC which just does not exist. Now I have to hurry getting breakfast (or I get into troubles) Robert
Agreed completely on both of those points. There's double good news on both: 1) Someone plans to do something about it. 2) Both are with community involvement. On documentation, someone in the community has committed to taking over the Documentation page on zope.org and finally organizing the myriad of useful, but unlocatable, doc resources out there. The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. I spoke with the guys here doing the extreme programming session on Zope3, and they agreed. To say it again: 1) I think the world of Zope needs to grow 10x in the next year. 2) ZC can't do it, and much of the action in Zope is non-U.S., particularly Europe. 3) Thus, Zope needs a strong, competitive internationalization story. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. --Paul Robert Rottermann wrote:
Friends, first thing I want is to express my huge gratitude to have something like Zope and its community.
I have read all the all the mail that has been stirred by "that" open letter. I agree very much and I am willing to contribute as much as I can that zope should grow 10x. I found two things missing in the discussion so far that are crucial to attain this goal:
- documentation To start using Zope doing something more than trivial is an incredibly frustrating thing. Hunting for the right piece of documentation is very very hard. The community is very helpful I agree readily. However asking it should be the last resort and being forced to use it as an important part of the developement effort is very cumbersome and time consuming. And does not really take the frustration out of the process. Bruce Eckels postings to this list show that even a developer of his statue is prone to the same effect. I am a seasoned programmer that started to deal with Zope exactly one year ago. It is only now that I learn where to look for what piece of information and to decide which one is relevant and which one is not.
- translation support Internationalisation is crucial. English in the user interface is just not tolerated in a non English speaking part of the world. It is 10 years ago something like that would have been acceptable. I am from Switzerland where we pride ourselves to be multilingual (6 Million inhabitants 4 major languages, English being the fifth). However nobody would think of having anything like English on a public website. There are a number of efforts towards translation support. However to have any of them to succeed it needs the support of ZC which just does not exist.
Now I have to hurry getting breakfast (or I get into troubles)
Robert
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n.
ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step.
Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be "hot spots" to fix with regard to i18n. The next step would be to agree on ONE syntax for use in Python, ZPT, and DTML (not necessarly the same for each, but not more than ONE way for each). So there can be two or more implementations of internationalization to choose from, but Product maintainers do not have to provide two or more sets of DTML/ZPT files. BTW, it is not too hard to make ZBabel accept Localizer-style tags (which I already implemented in a CVS branch) and vice versa. The remaining difference between ZBabel and Localizer is a rather political one: We, the ZBabel team, are for consequent "late binding" of translations. That means that we are against having multiple sets of properties for languages. There will only be one set of properties, e.g. in English, and then the BabelTower is used to translate them. This is for non-content things. For content, we prefer the generic approach of ZBabel objects, that actually is able to internationalize everything from images to CMF news (at least in theory). The concept could be extended to have real content negotiation support for Zope. I tried to outline that a bit in my comments at http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ExplicitNam espaceControlInURLs, which seems to be too hidden to be read. I envision a Zope server to be able to return a content object (e.g. an image) in a variety of supported formats and versions, just by setting the browser content negotiation settings right or choosing an appropriate URL. E.g., a browser that can display png images should get them where appropriate, and somebody who doesn't have MS Word installed should get a PDF version of a document instead, etc. etc. (same with language versions). Joachim
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de> To: "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n.
ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step.
Hi!
I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be "hot spots" to fix with regard to i18n.
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the "open letter to zope-dev" I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the "open letter to zope-dev" I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
I didn't want to blame anybody. BTW: I have already mentioned the two areas "Help!" button and acl_user add screen a couple of times. These seem to be the two that really are not translateable via DTML. Another issue might be the system messages. In general, if the error handling in general (including the authentication errors that are not curently customizable without diving into the code) is revamped in Zope 3.0 (which I hope), all error messages should be made translateable one way or the other. But of course translations also have their limits. Yesterday I was asked by a collegue whether we should also translate the names of the permissions and roles ... I said "Maybe not ..." ;-) Regarding the unicode support, everything works flawlessly without as long as one just needs German and English. That's why I don't have too much expertise about unicode. Joachim
Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained. However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs "translatable" and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from "our" side - missing involvement and therefore no "shepherding" from ZC's side If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start "doing" it. Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> To: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de>; "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de> To: "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris
by
Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n.
ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step.
Hi!
I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be "hot spots" to fix with regard to i18n.
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the "open letter to zope-dev" I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
Cheers, Andreas
As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient consensus about resolving them. The first criteria that I have is whether someone is willing to become a CVS contributor and shepherd i18n in a responsible fashion, as Martijn Faassen has done with XML. In this sense we suffer from an embarassment of riches: both Localizer and ZBabel have people willing to step up and provide leadership. Unfortunately there isn't someone with sufficient authority on the subject to annoint one as more right than the other. And an arbitrary decision by ZC is sure to leave hard feelings. Unfortunately this needs to get cleared up soon, so that an i18n team can start influencing the component architecture. I suggest that Stefane and Juan David (Localizer/Nuxeo) and Stephan, Andrew, and Joachim (ZBabel/iuveno) have a little chat and make a recommendation for a small next step. --Paul Robert Rottermann wrote:
Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained.
However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs "translatable" and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from "our" side - missing involvement and therefore no "shepherding" from ZC's side
If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start "doing" it.
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> To: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de>; "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de> To: "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris
by
Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed
me
on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to
anticipate
the needs of i18n and l10n.
ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should
be
thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step.
Hi!
I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects
right
now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't
have
to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button
in
the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be "hot spots" to fix with
regard
to i18n.
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope
core.
Referring to the "open letter to zope-dev" I could also charge the
community
for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars.
Instead
we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
Cheers, Andreas
Interesting. Could somebody make a quick summary of the different approaces used by ZBabel and localizer? I won't have time to download them and read the code for at least a month or two. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com> To: "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient consensus about resolving them.
The first criteria that I have is whether someone is willing to become a CVS contributor and shepherd i18n in a responsible fashion, as Martijn Faassen has done with XML. In this sense we suffer from an embarassment of riches: both Localizer and ZBabel have people willing to step up and provide leadership.
Unfortunately there isn't someone with sufficient authority on the subject to annoint one as more right than the other. And an arbitrary decision by ZC is sure to leave hard feelings. Unfortunately this needs to get cleared up soon, so that an i18n team can start influencing the component architecture.
I suggest that Stefane and Juan David (Localizer/Nuxeo) and Stephan, Andrew, and Joachim (ZBabel/iuveno) have a little chat and make a recommendation for a small next step.
--Paul
Robert Rottermann wrote:
Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm
of
i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained.
However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs "translatable" and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from "our" side - missing involvement and therefore no "shepherding" from ZC's side
If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start "doing" it.
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> To: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de>; "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de> To: "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris
by
Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed
me
on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to
anticipate
the needs of i18n and l10n.
ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should
be
thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step.
Hi!
I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects
right
now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't
have
to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button
in
the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be "hot spots" to fix with
regard
to i18n.
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope
core.
Referring to the "open letter to zope-dev" I could also charge the
community
for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars.
Instead
we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
Cheers, Andreas
_______________________________________________ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Hi, as far as I understand the issue, both I18n solutions coud agree on a common set of features they need in the Zope-core. I think booth should formulate, what their requests are. --On Sonntag, Dezember 02, 2001 13:13:30 -0500 Paul Everitt <paul@zope.com> wrote:
As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient consensus about resolving them.
The first criteria that I have is whether someone is willing to become a CVS contributor and shepherd i18n in a responsible fashion, as Martijn Faassen has done with XML. In this sense we suffer from an embarassment of riches: both Localizer and ZBabel have people willing to step up and provide leadership.
Unfortunately there isn't someone with sufficient authority on the subject to annoint one as more right than the other. And an arbitrary decision by ZC is sure to leave hard feelings. Unfortunately this needs to get cleared up soon, so that an i18n team can start influencing the component architecture.
I suggest that Stefane and Juan David (Localizer/Nuxeo) and Stephan, Andrew, and Joachim (ZBabel/iuveno) have a little chat and make a recommendation for a small next step.
--Paul
Robert Rottermann wrote:
Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained.
However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs "translatable" and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from "our" side - missing involvement and therefore no "shepherding" from ZC's side
If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start "doing" it.
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> To: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de>; "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de> To: "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris
by
Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed
me
on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to
anticipate
the needs of i18n and l10n.
ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should
be
thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step.
Hi!
I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects
right
now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't
have
to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button
in
the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be "hot spots" to fix with
regard
to i18n.
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope
core.
Referring to the "open letter to zope-dev" I could also charge the
community
for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars.
Instead
we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
Cheers, Andreas
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Who ever takes the lead, I will follow What I believe however, it should make no difference which of the two approaches is used. Even to an extent that both could live next to each other. What we need is a translation of everything that ever has a chance to bubble up to the screen. This is done by wrapping it in a translate call. By default this translation does nothing. Just returns its input unaltered. This costs very little processing time but provides a hook where an other process that does the real processing take over. We have been successfully doing that (using C++ and Lisp) for well over 10 years. I am using it now in the CMF sites I created (not many yet). So our first task is not to decide what technique to use for the translation but to list what should be translated, and how to best structure the translation process. By structuring I mean splitting Zope into parts should be considered a unit that is translated as a whole.CMF would be one such unit. i18n covers more than only software translation. However this is where we must start. Since Zope does not have a complicated userinterface I believe it is no complicated task. Guet Nacht! Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com> To: "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient consensus about resolving them.
The first criteria that I have is whether someone is willing to become a CVS contributor and shepherd i18n in a responsible fashion, as Martijn Faassen has done with XML. In this sense we suffer from an embarassment of riches: both Localizer and ZBabel have people willing to step up and provide leadership.
Unfortunately there isn't someone with sufficient authority on the subject to annoint one as more right than the other. And an arbitrary decision by ZC is sure to leave hard feelings. Unfortunately this needs to get cleared up soon, so that an i18n team can start influencing the component architecture.
I suggest that Stefane and Juan David (Localizer/Nuxeo) and Stephan, Andrew, and Joachim (ZBabel/iuveno) have a little chat and make a recommendation for a small next step.
--Paul
Robert Rottermann wrote:
Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm
of
i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained.
However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs "translatable" and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from "our" side - missing involvement and therefore no "shepherding" from ZC's side
If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start "doing" it.
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> To: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de>; "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de> To: "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch> Cc: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris
by
Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed
me
on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to
anticipate
the needs of i18n and l10n.
ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should
be
thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step.
Hi!
I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects
right
now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't
have
to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button
in
the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be "hot spots" to fix with
regard
to i18n.
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope
core.
Referring to the "open letter to zope-dev" I could also charge the
community
for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars.
Instead
we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
Cheers, Andreas
From: "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch>
What I believe however, it should make no difference which of the two approaches is used.
As far as I can understand, ZBabel uses a database to store the translations. Is this correct? That approach is for obvious reasons not useful when translating the Zope core and the Zope management interfaces, even though it is a reasonable (even good) way to do it when translating web pages.
Hi Lennart, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennart Regebro" <lennart@regebro.nu> To: <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:41 PM Subject: [Zope-dev] Re: core i18n support
From: "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch>
What I believe however, it should make no difference which of the two approaches is used.
As far as I can understand, ZBabel uses a database to store the translations. Is this correct?
You can use an external database based on Postgresql. But you have not to use !!!! Normally your data will be stored in the ZODB ZBabelTower
That approach is for obvious reasons not useful when translating the Zope core and the Zope management interfaces, even though it is a reasonable (even good) way to do it when translating web pages.
Regards Dirk
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From: "Dirk Datzert" <Dirk.Datzert@rasselstein-hoesch.de>
Normally your data will be stored in the ZODB ZBabelTower
Fine, but that is also useless for translating Zope core, unfortunately. It is good for translating webpages though, so both this and storing it on the filesystem must be availiable, simultaneously in the translating system. How does Localizer store the translated strings?
Lennart Regebro schrieb:
From: "Dirk Datzert" <Dirk.Datzert@rasselstein-hoesch.de>
Normally your data will be stored in the ZODB ZBabelTower
Fine, but that is also useless for translating Zope core,
Why ? I dont't understand this ! I have translated thr OFS of Zope on my system working very well.
unfortunately. It is good for translating webpages though, so both this and storing it on the filesystem must be availiable, simultaneously in the translating system.
How does Localizer store the translated strings?
I thing that the store ist only filesystem based.
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From: "Dirk Datzert" <Dirk.Datzert@rasselstein-hoesch.de>
Lennart Regebro schrieb:
Fine, but that is also useless for translating Zope core,
Why ? I dont't understand this ! I have translated thr OFS of Zope on my system working very well.
Because if you delete the Data.fs the translations go away. If you have multiple installations of Zope, and you need to change one translation, you would have to update each instance. If you upgrade Zope, new translations would not appear, and so on. Not very practical. :-) The translation of Zope, and also of other products that you install, need to be a part of Zope or the products. When you install a product, the translations should be installed at the same time.
I thing that the store ist only filesystem based.
Well, then the "war" between Localizer and ZBabel will end right here and right now. :-) Both solutions are needed for an integration of internationalization in Zope. Both products/methods should be integrated into one product for Zope 2.5 and the inserted into the Zope3 core when the bugs are removed.
Lennart Regebro schrieb:
From: "Dirk Datzert" <Dirk.Datzert@rasselstein-hoesch.de>
Lennart Regebro schrieb:
Fine, but that is also useless for translating Zope core,
Why ? I dont't understand this ! I have translated thr OFS of Zope on my system working very well.
Because if you delete the Data.fs the translations go away. If you have multiple installations of Zope, and you need to change one translation, you would have to update each instance.
For this update is a mechanims on XML-RPC design. There will be a ZBabelMasterTower on the internet where you can download any translation which is available on the net. Simple click on synchronize and thats it.
If you upgrade Zope, new translations would not appear, and so on. Not very practical. :-)
The translation of Zope, and also of other products that you install, need to be a part of Zope or the products. When you install a product, the translations should be installed at the same time.
I thing that the store ist only filesystem based.
Well, then the "war" between Localizer and ZBabel will end right here and right now. :-) Both solutions are needed for an integration of internationalization in Zope. Both products/methods should be integrated into one product for Zope 2.5 and the inserted into the Zope3 core when the bugs are removed.
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From: "Dirk Datzert" <Dirk.Datzert@rasselstein-hoesch.de>
For this update is a mechanims on XML-RPC design. There will be a ZBabelMasterTower on the internet where you can download any translation which is available on the net. Simple click on synchronize and thats it.
That is both more complicated and error prone to implement and more complicated and error prone to do. For every version of a translatable product that ever has been release you woulld need to have a separate database of translations in a central repository. Who is going to manage this central repository? What happens if that location goes down? Whap happens if you want to something on a PC before the IT department have opened a friewall so you are blocked from accessing the central repository? If you find a bug in the translation, how to you update the repository? From: "Stephan Richter" <srichter@cbu.edu>
Well, no. Because then the products would get too large. The better approach is to allow an online sync, again, which comes with the next ZBabel version.
If the translations mean the products get too big (which I honestly doubt, I have never ever seen any example of a localization that is more than a couple of percent of the whole application) it would be no problem at all to have the translations downloadable separately if so desired by the producers.
Well, all the i18n developers will have a meeting early January in Europe with Jim Fulton in a 2-day brainstorming session.
Excellent! When and where?
Lennart
That is both more complicated and error prone to implement and more complicated and error prone to do.
No it's not. It is like saying it is better to have a computer off the network than having a fail-over like system on the net. Syncing is not that bad at all.
For every version of a translatable product that ever has been release you woulld need to have a separate database of translations in a central repository. Who is going to manage this central repository?
In the beginning the ZBabel team is going to manage the Master Tower.
What happens if that location goes down?
You have mirrors of course; it is no different than any other FTP distribution site.
What happens if you want to something on a PC before the IT department have opened a friewall so you are blocked from accessing the central repository?
Well, if you are blocked from HTML, then you cannot download products in the first place. We also plan to have a way of bundeling modules up into a file... In anyway, no HTTP = No Products, in which case that means you do not need the translations in the first place.
If you find a bug in the translation, how to you update the repository?
You contact the maintainer of this module and language. Works exactly like software development.
From: "Stephan Richter" <srichter@cbu.edu>
Well, no. Because then the products would get too large. The better approach is to allow an online sync, again, which comes with the next ZBabel version.
If the translations mean the products get too big (which I honestly doubt, I have never ever seen any example of a localization that is more than a couple of percent of the whole application) it would be no problem at all to have the translations downloadable separately if so desired by the producers.
You see, that is exactly what we are doing. We also offer a nice facility for people to go and translate. This way the authors of products do not have to worry when their phrases are translated into a new language. And it will be much faster for the translator, since he can do several modules at once.
Well, all the i18n developers will have a meeting early January in Europe with Jim Fulton in a 2-day brainstorming session.
Excellent! When and where?
Beginning of January somewhere in Europe. However, as I understand it, it will NOT be a "public" event, since the goal is to produce workable Zope 3 code. BTW, with criticism comes usually constructive input. Speaking for me, most of the code was written in my free time (I summed up my time for this year and I estimated between 400-500 community hours. That is excluding the free software I have produced as contractor). If you want to make a difference and influence the way the products are developing, you just have to produce the majority (>30%) of the new code and everything will work out for you much better. I have also looked for your name on the Zope site, and all I found were some comments. If you have already improvements to some of the Zope code, why are you not publishing it then? If you have the problem of not knowing any parts to improve I will be happy to provide you with a list. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management
From: "Stephan Richter" <srichter@cbu.edu>
Beginning of January somewhere in Europe. However, as I understand it, it will NOT be a "public" event, since the goal is to produce workable Zope 3 code.
Thats fine by me. I don't know who are involved in the different localization projects and who to talk to, but I think the input that I provide are valid and must be taken care of. If not by the people doing things today, then by myself. I am of course very willing to contribute coding also. I'm very sorry that I haven't looked into the localization efforts earlier, I have had that quite far down on my list, mostly because there were project ongoing, so I viewed it as "being taken care of". Not until I recently on this list heard that there was TWO efforts that had some kind of disagreement I started to look into things. This obviously was very badly prioritized by me, and thats my fault. I'm sorry about that.
BTW, with criticism comes usually constructive input.
Unfortunately it seldom does, but I agree that it should. :-) I understand you take this as critisism of your work and react like it's personal. Especially if this has been an ongoing discussion for a long time where people can not agree. It happens. I do not intent to hurt anybodies feelings, I merely state my view of things, and in this case I do it very strongly, becuase I very strongly feel that I am right, and that this is obvious and that there is a very real danger that the localization efforts of Zope will result in something that is not usable to us. We here at Torped have recently discovered that for our efforts, we need a translated version of Zope. This is nothing we can do ourselves, it has to be delevoped centrally and included in the zope core. We are very willing to commit time and resources to make this happen in the correct way.
I have also looked for your name on the Zope site, and all I found were some comments. If you have already improvements to some of the Zope code, why are you not publishing it then?
I haven't gotten involved in actually improving Zope itself until recently, because I haven't needed to. I'm trying to contribute, but have run up into the problems that is now being discussed in the "Open letters" debate. I have contributed things like patches. I don't know why they are not publicly availiable, because they are supposed to be listed... Theres something in the Zope site I don't understand. :-) Also I have submitted patches to Zope for bugfixes. One of them was indeed entered into the source. Another was first incorrectly rejected, and has since been completely ignored by Zope corp, something I don't know how to handle. So, no, I haven't contributed much yet from these reasons. That does not mean I'm not willing to contribute if I get a chance. Please don't take my suggestions personally in any way. I have what I regard as good, valid points, with solid arguments behind, and I'm willing to contribute to get it done. I don't want to do it myself, in competition with you, but together.
What patch was rejected, why was it incorrectly rejected?
Also I have submitted patches to Zope for bugfixes. One of them was indeed entered into the source. Another was first incorrectly rejected, and has since been completely ignored by Zope corp, something I don't know how to handle.
-- Chris McDonough Zope Corporation http://www.zope.org http://www.zope.com "Killing hundreds of birds with thousands of stones"
Lennart Regebro wrote:
Well, all the i18n developers will have a meeting early January in Europe with Jim Fulton in a 2-day brainstorming session.
Excellent! When and where?
Yeh, cat's almost out of the bag on this one. Here's the plan. Note that all of this is tentative! As you may have read, we have been doing some Zope3 xp "sprints" lately. We're pleased with the results. In fact, we'd like to start a pattern of opening up the sprints to outsiders. We'd like to invite folks to Fburg for a sprint. Though you'll pay your own freight, we'll supply a spacious cubicle. :^) If you're interested, contact me. Second, Jim is hoping to go to Europe first or second week of January to do two sprints. The first is with a small (3 plus Jim) group to resolve the internationalization bottleneck and get Zope3 to do i18n and l10n. This first group will then help Jim do a larger (maybe 8) sprint the subsequent two days for other people in Europe. We haven't yet arranged for facilities. Third, we'd like to host an open house on the Thur and Fri after IPC10. Besides an open house, we'd like to have perhaps a massive sprint. Just to point out the obvious...this is a sign that we're listening on this discussion and trying to lessen the difference between ZC and the community. With Zope3 we have a chance for key community people to shepherd important pieces of the architecture. These pieces can include XML, i18n, cataloging, package management, workflow, etc. At the same time, these sprints provide a working session with face-to-face communications. It's a high-bandwidth way to make sure Zope3 does what the community wants. --Paul
On Fri, 2001-12-07 at 11:47, Paul Everitt wrote:
In fact, we'd like to start a pattern of opening up the sprints to outsiders. We'd like to invite folks to Fburg for a sprint. Though you'll pay your own freight, we'll supply a spacious cubicle. :^) If you're interested, contact me.
Third, we'd like to host an open house on the Thur and Fri after IPC10. Besides an open house, we'd like to have perhaps a massive sprint.
[ sorry for x-posting, I wanted a eurozope perspective on this ] An exciting invitation, but ultimately frustrating for those of us in a different timezone. A lot of the active Zope community is in Europe, and a lot of us are members of very small businesses or academia (I think). At a minimum, coming to Fredericksburg would cost about $700 (travel and accomodation and food). If I wanted to visit IPC10 too, it would be between $1000 and £1700. Would other members of the EZ business / academic community be willing to stump up this money? I'd be interested to know. I don't think *we* could justify it at this stage in our business development - we already use a lot of resources on zope r&d, and community support. IMO, the economic reality of this community and its resources (on this side of the pond, at least) means it will stay vapour. ZC is the biggest fish, and the only times we in Europe will see you folks is when you come over here. When are you going to open a London office? ;-) Or perhaps we could consider distributed xp (using irc, kibitz, etc...?) Thanks for the invitation, though :) OT: big OSS conferences seem unfairly priced against the small fishes who make up a lot of the OSS community. Or am I being naive? seb
Because if you delete the Data.fs the translations go away. If you have multiple installations of Zope, and you need to change one translation, you would have to update each instance. If you upgrade Zope, new translations would not appear, and so on. Not very practical. :-)
Agreed; therefore the next version of ZBabel will come wit facilities that handle that/
The translation of Zope, and also of other products that you install, need to be a part of Zope or the products. When you install a product, the translations should be installed at the same time.
Well, no. Because then the products would get too large. The better approach is to allow an online sync, again, which comes with the next ZBabel version.
I thing that the store ist only filesystem based.
Well, then the "war" between Localizer and ZBabel will end right here and right now. :-) Both solutions are needed for an integration of internationalization in Zope. Both products/methods should be integrated into one product for Zope 2.5 and the inserted into the Zope3 core when the bugs are removed.
Well, all the i18n developers will have a meeting early January in Europe with Jim Fulton in a 2-day brainstorming session. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management
I've been trying to get updated and maybe even involved in the efforts take make Zope translatable, but failed. Are there such an effort going on seriously or have it died? The ZIP list is totally dead at least... I have some knowledge about the area since earlier work with creating easily translatable software, and I need a swedish version of Zope, so I'd like to help.
Hello Lennart, there are currently 2 prjects for zip: localizer and ZBabel. I prefer ZBabel for I18N . Currently a ZBabelMaster-Tower is being build with all necessary phrases of Zope, CMF and a lot of products. Regards Dirk Lennart Regebro schrieb:
I've been trying to get updated and maybe even involved in the efforts take make Zope translatable, but failed. Are there such an effort going on seriously or have it died? The ZIP list is totally dead at least...
I have some knowledge about the area since earlier work with creating easily translatable software, and I need a swedish version of Zope, so I'd like to help.
_______________________________________________ Zip mailing list Zip@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zip
On Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:50:14 -0500, "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> wrote:
Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-)
I see the smiley, but Im still not sure whether you are joking. Ive had stable, mature unicode support available as patches since Zope version 2.1. Im sure Andreas is familiar with them, we have discussed some details on more than one occasion. Ive expressed to DC several times that I am keen to get these patches into the zope core, and at Brian's request documented the changes in two fishbowl proposals (even that request seemed cheeky at the time; my patches were stable long before the fishbowl process ;-). He said he was keen to get something into version 2.3, then version 2.4, but so far nothing.
The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
So far it really does appear that nothing will happen about this particular issue until it is needed by a zope.com consulting project. If there is anything more that I can do then somebody please tell me what. Toby Dickenson tdickenson@geminidataloggers.com
Clearly this is a situation that has broken down. I'll suggest a resolution in a private note to you in a sec. --Paul Toby Dickenson wrote:
On Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:50:14 -0500, "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> wrote:
Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-)
I see the smiley, but Im still not sure whether you are joking.
Ive had stable, mature unicode support available as patches since Zope version 2.1. Im sure Andreas is familiar with them, we have discussed some details on more than one occasion.
Ive expressed to DC several times that I am keen to get these patches into the zope core, and at Brian's request documented the changes in two fishbowl proposals (even that request seemed cheeky at the time; my patches were stable long before the fishbowl process ;-). He said he was keen to get something into version 2.3, then version 2.4, but so far nothing.
The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
So far it really does appear that nothing will happen about this particular issue until it is needed by a zope.com consulting project. If there is anything more that I can do then somebody please tell me what.
Toby Dickenson tdickenson@geminidataloggers.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Dickenson" <tdickenson@devmail.geminidataloggers.co.uk> To: "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> Cc: "Joachim Werner" <joe@iuveno-net.de>; "Paul Everitt" <paul@zope.com>; "Robert Rottermann" <robert@redcor.ch>; <zope-dev@zope.org> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 05:34 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev On Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:50:14 -0500, "Andreas Jung" <andreas@andreas-jung.com> wrote:
Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-)
I see the smiley, but Im still not sure whether you are joking.
Ive had stable, mature unicode support available as patches since Zope version 2.1. Im sure Andreas is familiar with them, we have discussed some details on more than one occasion.
I must admit that I have lost the focus while working on other stuff. I also hesitated including the patches because it takes some time understanding the patches. When I checkin patches of other people I like to understand and know about all side effects to minimize the risks because I take over some kind of responsibilities and ownership of the code. The best way to include the patches into Zope is to get CVS access and put your stuff into a sandbox including updated documentation and unittests where neccessary.
Ive expressed to DC several times that I am keen to get these patches into the zope core, and at Brian's request documented the changes in two fishbowl proposals (even that request seemed cheeky at the time; my patches were stable long before the fishbowl process ;-). He said he was keen to get something into version 2.3, then version 2.4, but so far nothing.
Sometimes things get lost or forgotten. The best way to solve is problem is to become an active contributor with CVS checkin rights (see above).
The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing.
So far it really does appear that nothing will happen about this particular issue until it is needed by a zope.com consulting project.
This is not true. E.g. unicode support for the ZCatalog in Zope 2.5 has been added without the need of a ZC consulting project. I have implemented this support because I know that unicode support in the ZCatalog is very important due to my professional experiences during the last years. I admit that there is a gap between lots of useful proposals in the Fishbowl and the number of proposals that are really implemented and get included in the Zope core. I think the writers of proposals should try to get a "go ahead" on the zope-coders list after the proposal has been reviewed by the community and ZC and then work the implementation. But don't expect that all proposals can be implemented with ZC resources only. If someone likes to contribute interesting things to Zope, this is now much more easy with the opening of the CVS compared to earlier times. Regards, Andreas --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Andreas Jung Zope Corporation - - EMail: andreas@zope.com http://www.zope.com - - "Python Powered" http://www.python.org - - "Makers of Zope" http://www.zope.org - - "Life is a fulltime occupation" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (13)
-
Andreas Jung -
Andreas Jung -
Chris McDonough -
Dirk Datzert -
James Johnson -
Joachim Schmitz -
Joachim Werner -
Lennart Regebro -
Paul Everitt -
Robert Rottermann -
seb bacon -
Stephan Richter -
Toby Dickenson