Re: [medusa] Twisted, medusa, ZServer, and VFS's
Donovan> ZServer grew out of Medusa.... I'm not sure how tightly tied to Donovan> Zope it is.... Not tightly at all. I use it completely independent of Zope. Donovan> My problem with Medusa is its http and ftp servers assume that Donovan> the VFS can deliver files wrapped in producers without Donovan> blocking. I believe Sam Rushing has said all along that Medusa is intended for I/O-bound situations. If you have producers that are computationally bound or that do I/O outside of the Medusa framework, you'll suffer. -- Skip Montanaro (skip@pobox.com) http://www.mojam.com/ http://www.musi-cal.com/
I'm trying to get selective with the cross-posting based on what the thread is focusing on... On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:48:37AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
Donovan> ZServer grew out of Medusa.... I'm not sure how tightly tied to Donovan> Zope it is....
Not tightly at all. I use it completely independent of Zope.
Hmm, what for? How? What are you serving out of?
Donovan> My problem with Medusa is its http and ftp servers assume that Donovan> the VFS can deliver files wrapped in producers without Donovan> blocking.
I believe Sam Rushing has said all along that Medusa is intended for I/O-bound situations. If you have producers that are computationally bound or that do I/O outside of the Medusa framework, you'll suffer.
The problem is the existing http and ftp servers use file producers to serve content, and the framework assumes producers don't block. There is no way to make a producer that does I/O _inside_ the Medusa async framework, at least not without using my ready() patch. The proper way to fix this is to change the ftp and http server so they don't use file producers, instead they use file dispatchers to push async data onto the http/ftp dispatcher. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ABO: finger abo@minkirri.apana.org.au for more info, including pgp key ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donovan> ZServer grew out of Medusa.... I'm not sure how tightly tied to Donovan> Zope it is.... >> >> Not tightly at all. I use it completely independent of Zope. Donovan> Hmm, what for? How? What are you serving out of? I still do Zope-y sorts of things: serve files, execute database searches, etc. I just never used full-blown Zope. I never had any need for its management framework. -- Skip Montanaro (skip@pobox.com) http://www.mojam.com/ http://www.musi-cal.com/
Running Zope on Windows is quite convenient for developing and debugging portable Python extensions to run on the server. It's straightforward to run Zope under Visual C++, in order put breakpoints in Python extensions, single step through the code and catch errors. Not to start any religious arguments, but for me, the code development tools on Windows are much faster and easier to use than on Linux: visual symbolic debugging, precompiled headers, incremental compilation and linking, edit and continue, etc. So from that perspective, it's important for Zope and Python extensions to run identically on Windows and Linux, but not as important for Zope on Windows be able to stand up under a high load nor run for a long time. On the other hand, I've had some horrible problems developing Python extensions that make Windows calls (like showing a window, which triggers all kinds of windows message callbacks), which regularly crashed Windows so bad in a way that the debugger couldn't deal with, that I had to cycle the power each time. But that was caused by not locking and unlocking threads at the right time, around window related calls. Skip, I noticed your .sig changed: are you still looking for a flash of enlightenment after all these years? ;-) As an old NeWS hacker, Zope looks pretty flashy and enlightening to me! -Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Montanaro" <skip@pobox.com> To: <medusa@yahoogroups.com> Cc: <twisted-python@twistedmatrix.com>; <zope-dev@zope.org>; <martin@pycage.de>; <abo@minkirri.apana.org.au> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:48 AM Subject: [Zope-dev] Re: [medusa] Twisted, medusa, ZServer, and VFS's
Donovan> ZServer grew out of Medusa.... I'm not sure how tightly tied
to
Donovan> Zope it is....
Not tightly at all. I use it completely independent of Zope.
Donovan> My problem with Medusa is its http and ftp servers assume
that
Donovan> the VFS can deliver files wrapped in producers without Donovan> blocking.
I believe Sam Rushing has said all along that Medusa is intended for I/O-bound situations. If you have producers that are computationally
bound
or that do I/O outside of the Medusa framework, you'll suffer.
-- Skip Montanaro (skip@pobox.com) http://www.mojam.com/ http://www.musi-cal.com/
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Michel Pelletier proposes an interesting idea, of integrating Zope with Apache 2.0. That sounds like a really great idea with many upsides -- especially because you could write all kinds of interesting Apache extensions in Python. Has anyone written that idea up, or discussed it on other mailing lists? As a first step, how about using SWIG to expose the Apache 2.0 api to mod_python. -Don From: michel@zope.com (Michel Pelletier) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:09:45 -0400 Subject: [Zope-dev] A modest proposal: Replace medusa with Twisted Just to throw out another idea, Amos has discussed with me in the past the idea of replacing medusa with Apache 2.0. Compelling as many of Twisted's features may be, Apache 2.0 as far as i can tell supports many of them as well (except perhaps jython integration, which is a pipe dream anyway for Zope). Apache has the upshot in that it is rock solid, tested by millions, trusted by even more, and no doubt one of the most actively developed peices of software there is. For ZC the upshots of 1) not needing to maintain it, and 2) it being a excellent marketing tool outweight many technical benifits that twisted may have that Apache doesn't (I'd like to know what the differences are, however). For example, does twisted do URL rewriting? proxy? process/thread job control? Twisted does have the advantage of 1, but not 2. Further, our faith in the continuing development of Apache is, de facto, more than that of twisted simply based on the age, number of users, and number of developers of each project. I'm not dismissing the idea, I'm just pointing out an alternative to Itamar's alternative. ;) -Michel
participants (3)
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Don Hopkins -
Donovan Baarda -
Skip Montanaro