Hi, Almost a year ago I did a quick hack which added SOAP support to Zope. It really was something I played with in order to understand what this whole SOAP thingie is about. To my surprise, though, my web server access logs show that people have actually downloaded it :) Now, one year later, the situation is different (a couple Python SOAP libraries, as opposed to only one) so I'm looking into actually finishing (or redoing) the SOAP support for Zope. For this, I would very much apreciate comments -- especially from those guys who already used my patch, or think they are going to use Zope and SOAP in the future. Thanks, Petru
On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:25:47 -0700, ppetru@ppetru.net (Petru Paler) wrote:
Hi,
Almost a year ago I did a quick hack which added SOAP support to Zope. It really was something I played with in order to understand what this whole SOAP thingie is about. To my surprise, though, my web server access logs show that people have actually downloaded it :)
Now, one year later, the situation is different (a couple Python SOAP libraries, as opposed to only one) so I'm looking into actually finishing (or redoing) the SOAP support for Zope. For this, I would very much apreciate comments -- especially from those guys who already used my patch, or think they are going to use Zope and SOAP in the future.
I was really excited when you first released this SOAP patch. I *thought* I was going to be using it alot, but to my suprise Ive never actually looked at it (sorry). I guess the problem is that xml-rpc is almost good enough, and the advantage of xml-rpc being in the standard Zope core is enough that I cant justify the time experimenting with an alternative. (I do use xml-rpc alot) However, the fact that SOAP support was available if we needed it was enough to tip the balance in Zope's favor for a couple major projects last year. I do hope SOAP support is integrated into the Zope core this time round. Toby Dickenson tdickenson@geminidataloggers.com
Hi,
Almost a year ago I did a quick hack which added SOAP support to Zope. It really was something I played with in order to understand what this whole SOAP thingie is about. To my surprise, though, my web server access logs show that people have actually downloaded it :)
Now, one year later, the situation is different (a couple Python SOAP libraries, as opposed to only one) so I'm looking into actually finishing (or redoing) the SOAP support for Zope. For this, I would very much apreciate comments -- especially from those guys who already used my patch, or think they are going to use Zope and SOAP in the future.
I think SOAP is a very important feature for "selling" Zope. As Toby Dickenson pointed out, the actual use cases are still a bit rare, but this might change a lot with the upcoming ".NET" products from Microsoft. With regards to the implementation, it might be a good idea to try to do it the "components" way. Though, the new Zope components framework is still just a vision and proof of concept. I've set up a Fishbowl proposal for a Zope SOAP implementation a couple of weeks ago. Feel free to take it over, as I mainly put it onto the dev.zope.org Wiki to make sure it doesn't get forgotten ... Cheers Joachim
Joachim Werner wrote:
With regards to the implementation, it might be a good idea to try to do it the "components" way. Though, the new Zope components framework is still just a vision and proof of concept.
I think it is a bit more that that now. Look at what Shane's been up to on the NR-branch in CVS. -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited
I think SOAP is a very important feature for "selling" Zope. As Toby Dickenson pointed out, the actual use cases are still a bit rare, but this might change a lot with the upcoming ".NET" products from Microsoft.
You are exactly on target here - there is a definite mindshare wave happening around SOAP / WS. More importantly there are absolutely actual use cases now and a clear enough picture of what's coming to start taking some decisions. The clarity part is very important, IMHO. It's taken a while to get there, but I think it's actually a good thing that SOAP support wasn't immediately woven in as soon as it was feasible. I've been pretty deeply immersed in web services lately, and its pretty clear (to me, though others may certainly argue the point) that "web services" support for Zope should _not_ look like the current xml-rpc support. I won't go into detail here - lets do that in the fishbowl :)
With regards to the implementation, it might be a good idea to try to do it the "components" way. Though, the new Zope components framework is still just a vision and proof of concept.
Certainly we want to make sure we do things the component way when appropriate - but I don't think we'll know exactly what that means until we have solid use cases.
I've set up a Fishbowl proposal for a Zope SOAP implementation a couple of weeks ago. Feel free to take it over, as I mainly put it onto the dev.zope.org Wiki to make sure it doesn't get forgotten ...
I will volunteer to start a separate proposal to try to combine the current SOAP proposals with my own biased agenda :) This is something that will _really_ require a group of people who care to pay attention and provide feedback (especially on the use cases, though I'll volunteer to make the best start I can). Brian Lloyd brian@zope.com Software Engineer 540.361.1716 Zope Corporation www.zope.com
On 30 Jul 2001, at 10:34, Brian Lloyd wrote:
I will volunteer to start a separate proposal to try to combine the current SOAP proposals with my own biased agenda :) This is something that will _really_ require a group of people who care to pay attention and provide feedback (especially on the use cases, though I'll volunteer to make the best start I can).
I would like to use the webservice.htc component from IE 5.5 clients talking to Zope. I have a few one-page-web-apps hosted from Zope that are getting to be extremely complex. Right now I have to create my own XML bundle and send it to the server for processing. Please let me know which wiki we should be working in, I'll participate. Brad Clements, bkc@murkworks.com (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL-IM: BKClements
(Brian blathered:) I will volunteer to start a separate proposal to try to combine the current SOAP proposals with my own biased agenda :) This is something that will _really_ require a group of people who care to pay attention and provide feedback (especially on the use cases, though I'll volunteer to make the best start I can).
Ok, I've finished a whack at a proposal, for those interested: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/WebServicesForZope I'm pretty sure the most controversial part will be my stance on automagically exposing everything via SOAP the way we do now with xml-rpc :^) I have my fire-retardant skivvies on, so let me know what you think and let's make hashing that out the first order of business :^) Brian Lloyd brian@zope.com Zope Corporation www.zope.com
On 01 Aug 2001 15:02:47 -0400, Brian Lloyd wrote:
(Brian blathered:) I will volunteer to start a separate proposal to try to combine the current SOAP proposals with my own biased agenda :) This is something that will _really_ require a group of people who care to pay attention and provide feedback (especially on the use cases, though I'll volunteer to make the best start I can).
Ok, I've finished a whack at a proposal, for those interested:
http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/WebServicesForZope
I'm pretty sure the most controversial part will be my stance on automagically exposing everything via SOAP the way we do now with xml-rpc :^) I have my fire-retardant skivvies on, so let me know what you think and let's make hashing that out the first order of business :^)
I commented on the site, but thought I would post some of my concerns here as well ... get a broad base, so to speak. My concerns of the 'magic', would be dependant n whether or not your stance includes a limit on SOAP support. i agree that Web Servies != SOAP, but IMO, if your proposal means that SOAP support in Zope is only available in a Web Services ... 'namespace', then we will be sorely lacking in someting quite useful. For example, I have a GUI for user management that uses XML-RPC right now. I would MUCH prefer to use SOAP for it. It really is not a webservice, and it would be a mistake to make it one, just to get to it with SOAP. I am very interested, and knee-deep in Web Services development (both in and out of the web) right now, so consider me in on the proposal process. :) Be warned, I am rather opinionated (though open) on it so far. :) I would like to see Zope be an excellent development environment/server for SOAP Services. Bill Anderson
Brian Lloyd brian@zope.com Zope Corporation www.zope.com
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On 02 Aug 2001 23:56:08 -0600, Bill Anderson <bill@immosys.com> wrote:
My concerns of the 'magic', would be dependant n whether or not your stance includes a limit on SOAP support. i agree that Web Servies != SOAP, but IMO, if your proposal means that SOAP support in Zope is only available in a Web Services ... 'namespace', then we will be sorely lacking in someting quite useful.
For example, I have a GUI for user management that uses XML-RPC right now. I would MUCH prefer to use SOAP for it. It really is not a webservice, and it would be a mistake to make it one, just to get to it with SOAP.
I have had strong concerns that mirror what you describe here, and have been getting nervous every time Brian has said 'SOAP support shouldnt be like xml-rpm'. (just a cunning plan to make sure I read this Proposal, I guess) However, http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/WebServicesForZope has me completely satisfied that my SOAP-as-rpc needs will be satified too. Quoting from that article:
it will be relatively easy for people to build an alternative or extended Zope layer for special needs
In principal an alternative layer could implement the sample ZPublisher rules, as used by todays xml-rpc. (However, Im not sure it would be right to do *exactly* that; the has-it-got-a-docstring rule is barely adequate for its original purpose. I would be happy to require some extra typing, and less magic.) Such a layer fits nicely on top of Brians 'High-level layer' as I understand the architecture.
I would like to see Zope be an excellent development environment/server for SOAP Services.
Indeed. Toby Dickenson tdickenson@geminidataloggers.com
On 30 Jul 2001 00:25:47 -0700, Petru Paler wrote:
Hi,
Almost a year ago I did a quick hack which added SOAP support to Zope. It really was something I played with in order to understand what this whole SOAP thingie is about. To my surprise, though, my web server access logs show that people have actually downloaded it :)
Now, one year later, the situation is different (a couple Python SOAP libraries, as opposed to only one) so I'm looking into actually finishing (or redoing) the SOAP support for Zope. For this, I would very much apreciate comments -- especially from those guys who already used my patch, or think they are going to use Zope and SOAP in the future.
Well, I tried it this last week or so (if it is the patch Andy referenced this last week), and was unable to get it to work, though in fairness, it was applied to Zope 2.4.0 :) I have a very strong need for SOAP support in Zope, as I my company is developing a *very* significant and ambitious service infrstructure, and Zope would make it soooo much easier, especially since we intend to put out Zope Products that connct to it, and use it. Any chance you could port the patch to 2.4.0, at least for Prototyping use? :) Bill
participants (7)
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Bill Anderson -
Brad Clements -
Brian Lloyd -
Joachim Werner -
ppetruļ¼ ppetru.net -
Steve Alexander -
Toby Dickenson