Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue: The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point: - very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug fixes (see the tons of open bugs in the collector) - very few people are willing to contribute to documentation The reasons for this situation from my prospective: - Lots of Z2 people are working now on Plone projects. Plone currently attracts more people because the important and interesting projects are done there. Paul Everits goal to grow Zope by 10 times might happen through Plone, not through Zope itself - The Z2 development is badly managed. The 2.7 release has been delayed for one year or so. - ZC is currently the bottleneck for Z2. Several important people have left and I don't see any new blood there. I see that ZC is focusing on Z3 for the future. That is a legitimate goal from their own prospective but it does not reflect the needs of lots of users. Speaking for the company I am mainly working for have invest a lot time, code and money into Z2 development. E.g. our complete company-critical CMS is currently being rewritten on the base of Zope2. Several other products will be also Zope 2 based. Zope 3 is in the current stage not really an alternative for complex sites, portals and applications in the style we are working on. Z3 might become interesting if we have Plone-like functionality available. To speak with Maiks words: Z3 is attractive as an academic project to try out things and concepts but it does not attract people in the current stage...maybe in two years from now but currently most people are attracted by working and usable solutions like Plone. - The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages), usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad. We need for Zope2 - a better and open management for Z2 releases: If ZC can not provide the resources in terms of time and manpower, the coordination and release management should be given to the community. I am sure that more are willing to contribute more than at the moment. Several companies maintain their own Zope version with lots of extensions and it would be fine to see this stuff in a common repository. - a clear statement from ZC to the future of Zope 2. Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9 are considered as a migration path for Zope 3 where the Z2 support should be dropped after these releases (as far as I can remember the vision of Rob a while ago). Who will manage Z2 releases after dropping the Z2 support? The last solution would be a Z2 code fork if we can not come to common agreement on the Z2 future but a code fork would be really the last and absolutely worst solution for everyone. - Fix the most outstanding critical bugs on zope.org and speed it up. Zope.org is currently a very bad figurehead for Zope. If ZC can not solve the problems....either give the responsibility to other people or just close zope.org.
From my own prospective as developer I would like to see that Z2 development over the next two or three years continues because there is too much Z2 legacy code in the world and not everyone is interested in following the migration path for Z3. To be honest I doubt that large custom applications can be migrated with a justifiable amount of time and money (just because they are completely bound to Z2 components and its architecture).
To clarify my standpoint: I am not an opponent of Zope3 but Zope 3 does not convince me in the current stage and gives me little attraction for the projects I am working on....it just can not compete with Zope 2 if you are building large-scale systems at this time. Andreas ----- ZOPYX - Software Development & Consulting Andreas Jung www.zopyx.com -- Andreas Jung -------------------------------- www.zopyx.com Software-Entwicklung und Consulting Andreas Jung
Personally, I think Zope3 has a great future, and will pick up a much larger community than Zope2 ever did, because it's better designed and better documented. In general, the people who stand to gain immediately (or pretty soon) from Zope3 are enthusiasts; newcomers; and ZC. However, if the process of moving away from Zope2 is not managed very carefully and slowly, the people who stand to lose are companies that already rely on Zope2. I agree that the solution is probably to allow the community more control over the release cycle, web site, and repository. We could follow various other models from elsewhere in the OSS world, and see what happens. I believe that ZC's apparent reticence on this is because they are (understandably) interested in preserving control over their brand, which overlaps rather largely with the software. What would be helpful is a definitive statement from ZC as to whether they would consider relinquishing some of their control over Zope 2. Perhaps, instead of a code fork, we could have a brand fork, with a different website, a different name, and a different release schedule (think Fedora?) Seb Andreas Jung wrote:
From my own prospective as developer I would like to see that Z2
development over the next two or three years continues because there is too much Z2 legacy code in the world and not everyone is interested in following the migration path for Z3. To be honest I doubt that large custom applications can be migrated with a justifiable amount of time and money (just because they are completely bound to Z2 components and its architecture).
To clarify my standpoint: I am not an opponent of Zope3 but Zope 3 does not convince me in the current stage and gives me little attraction for the projects I am working on....it just can not compete with Zope 2 if you are building large-scale systems at this time.
Andreas
Hi, the points I snipped I agree with and/or have no new input for. On Wednesday 21 April 2004 05:36, Andreas Jung wrote:
The reasons for this situation from my prospective:
- Lots of Z2 people are working now on Plone projects. Plone currently attracts more people because the important and interesting projects are done there. Paul Everits goal to grow Zope by 10 times might happen through Plone, not through Zope itself
Yes. Note that there are plans emerging for Plone 3 for Zope 3. I hope that we will be able to redirect some of the development power of Plone towards Zope with Plone 3. And I think that will be possible. Zope 2 has too many abstraction layers: Zope --> CMF --> Plone, CPS, ... That means that if I develop a product for Zope, it cannot be automatically used in CMF/Plone optimally anymore. With Zope 3 we will get a fresh start on this.
- The Z2 development is badly managed. The 2.7 release has been delayed for one year or so.
Yes, I hope we will be able to manage releases in the community for Zope 3. Jim encouraged this by asking me to do the current Zope 3 releases (so I hope I will be able to give away this responsibility to someone else, when the Zope 3 community grows -- it will need someone who is constantly involved in the real world and sees the needs for releases clearer than I do).
- ZC is currently the bottleneck for Z2.
As stated before, I think that can be changed, if enough interest is shown in the community. But I think the Zope community lacks strong leaders; too many people are only interested in making money with it without realizing that their future depends on the general success and development of Zope.
Maiks words: Z3 is attractive as an academic project to try out things and concepts but it does not attract people in the current stage...maybe in two years from now but currently most people are attracted by working and usable solutions like Plone.
And that in itself is the problem. Making money is most important, securing the future is second. People don't care about the latter. :-(
- The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages), usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.
Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
Stephan Richter wrote:
Hi,
As stated before, I think that can be changed, if enough interest is shown in the community. But I think the Zope community lacks strong leaders; too many people are only interested in making money with it without realizing that their future depends on the general success and development of Zope.
That is not nessecarily mutually exclusive. But taking leadership is only possible if it is easy. I doubt that Plone would have been a succes if it had followed the Zope release schedule ...
And that in itself is the problem. Making money is most important, securing the future is second. People don't care about the latter. :-(
Offcourse we do. But we need to focus on a few areas. We cannot all develop frameworks. Personally I serve my customers, and write content types for Plone. That is a full-time job right there. I do take pride in making them well tested, and properly documented. I don't really see how I can do any more than that.
- The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages),
Stuff like performance is probably better off left to zc. It is very hardware specific, so on-site developers has a clear advantage.
usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.
Yes!
Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute.
Well. The switch wasn't very well made. It has become more difficult to use. (Why do we need the default state to be private? Or perhaps trusted Members could get the reviewer role locally so that it would be easier to use.)
But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.
Stepped up to do what? How do you step up? To me it seems like you will get the ability to have endless comitee meetings about how it should work. Not the power to just change stuff. Even if it breaks sometimes. I have enough of that kind of work from my customers thank you ;-) regards Max M
Stephan Richter wrote:
Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.
I believe part of the blockage is because contributors have to sign far more than just a simple CVS contributor's agreement. This bureaucracy is not helpful. Regards, Martijn
Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-21 19:42 +0200:
Stephan Richter wrote:
Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.
I believe part of the blockage is because contributors have to sign far more than just a simple CVS contributor's agreement. This bureaucracy is not helpful.
+1 -- Dieter
Stephan Richter wrote:
Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.
Sorry, but I think you'll find several people stepped up, and ZC slapped them in the face with a big fat legal document. That's never a good way to encourage people to help... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200 Andreas Jung <lists@zopyx.com> wrote:
Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue:
The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point:
- very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug fixes (see the tons of open bugs in the collector)
I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days. I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would people feel about next Thursday, April 29?
- very few people are willing to contribute to documentation
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously. -Casey
Casey Duncan wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200 Andreas Jung <lists@zopyx.com> wrote:
Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue:
The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point:
- very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug fixes (see the tons of open bugs in the collector)
I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days. I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would people feel about next Thursday, April 29?
Have a bug day, might as well. The problem with bug days is that they losing ground to the slow but steady trickle of new issues. A dedicated developer who camps on the Collector would help tremendously. Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim, you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old aren't something the rest of the community can do anything about. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "Paranoia is a disease unto itself, and may I add, the person standing next to you may not be who they appear to be, so take precaution." -Sathington Willoughby
Jamie Heilman wrote: ..
Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim,
I think it was Andreas
you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old aren't something the rest of the community can do anything about.
Are you suggesting that we hid them? As soon as we found out about them, we mobilized the whole company to work on them. This was a big deal that we put a lot of effort into over a fairly short time. How is this evidence that we were a bottleneck? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
Jim Fulton wrote:
Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim,
I think it was Andreas
Ah, you're right, oh well apart from who said it...
you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old aren't something the rest of the community can do anything about.
Are you suggesting that we hid them? As soon as we found out about them, we mobilized the whole company to work on them. This was a big deal that we put a lot of effort into over a fairly short time. How is this evidence that we were a bottleneck?
I think you're confusing the past with the present. There is at least 1 hidden security bug thats been sitting in the queue for a year *right now*. I'm not talking about the stuff that was fixed in the last audit. As for why they are hidden, well thats, the *$@%ing collector that encourages it, and as ZC runs the collector that puts the ball squarely in ZC's court. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "You came all this way, without saying squat, and now you're trying to tell me a '56 Chevy can beat a '47 Buick in a dead quarter mile? I liked you better when you weren't saying squat kid." -Buddy
On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Casey Duncan wrote:
I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days. I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would people feel about next Thursday, April 29?
+1 -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Casey Duncan wrote:
I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days. I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would people feel about next Thursday, April 29?
Stop feeling and do it! No, I can't join, because I'll be on my way to Sweden that day. So, then have another bug day a couple of weeks later, maybe I can join then. And so on, and so on... Of course, my greatest contribution usually is closing bugs reports that are really support questions, but hey, it's still squishes! :-)
Casey Duncan wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200 Andreas Jung <lists@zopyx.com> wrote:
- very few people are willing to contribute to documentation
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously.
That's a great points. Wikis *can* definitely really speed up the documentation process. Of course wikis can also die, but the low bar towards contribution is really really helpful. Just take a look at www.wikipedia.org for an extremely impressive example of what is possible. Regards, Martijn
--On Mittwoch, 21. April 2004 10:41 Uhr -0400 Casey Duncan <casey@zope.com> wrote:
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously.
Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I wonder why we were not able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org? Andreas
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:36:29 +0200 Andreas Jung <andreas@andreas-jung.com> wrote:
--On Mittwoch, 21. April 2004 10:41 Uhr -0400 Casey Duncan <casey@zope.com> wrote:
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously.
Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I wonder why we were not able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org?
I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a social thing: Simon decided to do something and had the software, bandwidth and hardware to do it. People have gravitated to it and it looks like it has momentum. I see no downside, Darwin has spoken... ;^) -Casey
Andreas Jung wrote:
Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I wonder why we were not able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org?
Indeed. I shall see if I can put some input there... Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book? It's got a much nicer UI than Zope.org... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
On Thursday 22 April 2004 03:31, Lennart Regebro wrote:
Today 03:31:57
From: "Chris Withers" <chris@simplistix.co.uk>
Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book?
It's gonna be hard to get a printable book out of a Wiki...
I tried this and I can tell you that a Wiki is not the right format for a book. While it lowers the entrance points, it is far too simplistic. I eventually changed my master to LaTeX, where I can add as much meta-data and other markup (especially for an index, which is crucial) easily and then I try to create Wiki-friendly STX files from that. When people change things in the Wiki, I use the diffs to update the masters. This turned out to be a very good move, since sometimes the corrections change the meaning of what I intended to say. Additionally, I can now always create a beautiful PDF in less than a minute. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 06:07:10AM -0400, Stephan Richter wrote:
I tried this and I can tell you that a Wiki is not the right format for a book. While it lowers the entrance points, it is far too simplistic. I eventually changed my master to LaTeX, where I can add as much meta-data and other markup (especially for an index, which is crucial) easily and then I try to create Wiki-friendly STX files from that.
Would this help... LatexWiki is a patch to the ZWiki package that allows rendering of in-line LaTeX. http://mcelrath.org/Notes/LatexWiki -- Fred Yankowski fred@ontosys.com tel: +1.630.879.1312 OntoSys, Inc PGP keyID: 7B449345 fax: +1.630.879.1370 www.ontosys.com 38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510-9461, USA
On Thursday 22 April 2004 08:34, Fred Yankowski wrote:
On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 06:07:10AM -0400, Stephan Richter wrote:
I tried this and I can tell you that a Wiki is not the right format for a book. While it lowers the entrance points, it is far too simplistic. I eventually changed my master to LaTeX, where I can add as much meta-data and other markup (especially for an index, which is crucial) easily and then I try to create Wiki-friendly STX files from that.
Would this help...
        LatexWiki is a patch to the ZWiki package that allows         rendering of in-line LaTeX.
        http://mcelrath.org/Notes/LatexWiki
Yeah, this is exactely what I would need. Maybe I could ask someone to install this for me. Mmmhh, ... Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
Yeah, this is exactely what I would need. Maybe I could ask someone to install this for me. Mmmhh, ...
Hi Stephan.. I'll look into installing it on zopewiki for experiments. If someone wants to enable it on zope.org as well I will support.
On Tuesday 27 April 2004 14:42, Simon Michael wrote:
Yeah, this is exactely what I would need. Maybe I could ask someone to install this for me. Mmmhh, ...
Hi Stephan.. I'll look into installing it on zopewiki for experiments. If someone wants to enable it on zope.org as well I will support.
Cool, I am willing to test some chapters of the cookbook with it. I have a whole lot of customized commands, so they would need to play nicely with ZWiki for LaTeX. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 02:56, Chris Withers wrote:
Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book? It's got a much nicer UI than Zope.org...
Every few weeks or so I go and clean out (sometimes hundreds of) "test" and "fglrldjksjds" and "you suck!" comments in the BackTalk version of the book and I'm tremendously thankful at that point that I don't need to actually read the text to distinguish a comment from a "canonical" part of the book, but I still have the comment in-situ to see its context. Before the Zope.org transition, I had configured the books to be commentable only by authenticated users to make inane and content-free comments harder for people to make, but it still happened. When the transition was done, it turned out that authentication was no longer required, I didn't bother to turn it back on; I figured it's more important to lower the bar for commenters in order to get the best feedback possible anyway, so I just go clean it manually every so often and keep the good parts. It works pretty well, and I'm pretty happy with BackTalk for this purpose. Wikis are great for ad-hoc sorts of things but not so great when it's useful to maintain a distinct level of separation between reader and writer. I can also generate a PDF of the book at will from the BackTalk version, which I couldn't do (or at least I don't think I could do easily) with ZWiki. That said, I think zopewiki.org is a good thing and I encourage folks to contribute. If the Zope.org problems persist and I'm unable to find the time to fix them, I will host the development of the book somewhere else, but it will almost certainly be hosted with BackTalk. - C
Casey Duncan wrote:
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing
That is exactly the intent. We have needed this since the days of the ZDP.
I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a social thing: Simon decided to do something and had the software,
Not *just* social. I would say there seem to be social/structural/technical/perceptual reasons why such a thing simply cannot exist at ZC-managed zope.org right now. So, while zope.org would be the ideal url (and I tried to nudge zope.org in this direction for years without coming across as a zealot) I think there are actually some advantages to having a slightly separate docs site. More modular, scales better. Of course the more integration and interlinking the better. Constructively-intended zope.org criticism: zope.org is the zope community's biggest documentation asset. And yet at this point it is indeed also a big fat piano sitting on the windpipe of zope documentation, and hence the zope community itself. This is despite the best of intentions on all sides. To say (as Stephan has) that it's due to lack of volunteers is wrong. Many of us have tried. Perhaps ZC expects more from a volunteer than is realistic. Compare with other successful successful open source projects.
Andreas Jung wrote:
Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue:
The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point:
- very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug fixes (see the tons of open bugs in the collector)
In the last year, 37 people make 4215 checkins to the Zope 2 repository. This doesn't seem to shabby to me. Here's the breakdown by year: Year checkins people 2002 7090 33 2003 5276 34 2004 1103 24 # First 3 1/2 months There is some decline, as one would expect in a mature product. These numbers don't include CMF and Plone. I'd like to see a lot more contributions. But this still looks like a pretty healthy development community to me.
- very few people are willing to contribute to documentation
No one likes to write documentation. I think we're making some progress in this area in Zope 3 that I think will feed back to Zope 2.
The reasons for this situation from my prospective:
- Lots of Z2 people are working now on Plone projects. Plone currently attracts more people because the important and interesting projects are done there. Paul Everits goal to grow Zope by 10 times might happen through Plone, not through Zope itself
Is that bad?
- The Z2 development is badly managed. The 2.7 release has been delayed for one year or so.
You keep saying that, but you don't offer to help. We begged for help with the Zope 2.7 release. AFAIK, we got very little, so it fell to us.
- ZC is currently the bottleneck for Z2.
No, we're not. And it has nothing to do with how much time we spend on releases. Any time someone wants to help with or lead the release process, we'd be thrilled to support them in doing so. If the community wants more frequent releases, they need to help. It sounds like people are trying out amd giving feedback on the head. That's great! I'd really like to see 2.8 get out soon. ...
- The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages), usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.
Yes, that's a bad situation. We (meaning the Zope community) need to do something about this. Sigh. ...
We need for Zope2
- a better and open management for Z2 releases:
Please be specific. Better in what way? Open in what way? In what way have we not been open? ...
If ZC can not provide the resources in terms of time and manpower, the coordination and release management should be given to the community. I am sure that more are willing to contribute more than at the moment.
Great! Where are they? The community led the release of 2.6. I think that worked pretty well. We asked for, but didn't get volunteers for the Zope 2.7 release. If anyone wants to help with or lead the 2.8 release, I'd *love* to hear from them.
- a clear statement from ZC to the future of Zope 2.
We've said many times, and I'll say again, that Zope 2 will be with us for some time. We won't stop working on Zope 2 until Zope 3 is done (meaning does everything that Zope 2 does) and there is a clean migration path. We don't know, at this point, what form that path will take. We just haven't figured it out yet. Our short term strategy is to narrow the gap between Zope 2 and Zope 3, by having them share more and more software over time. This is what the Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9 releases will be about, in addition to community-developed enhancements, of course.
Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9 are considered as a migration path for Zope 3
Yes
where the Z2 support should be dropped after these releases
No. We've *never* said that. I fully expect Zope 2 releases after Zope 2.9. ...
From my own prospective as developer I would like to see that Z2
development over the next two or three years continues because there is too much Z2 legacy code in the world
Of course. No one is suggesting that we stop development of Zope 2. ...
To be honest I doubt that large custom applications can be migrated with a justifiable amount of time and money (just because they are completely bound to Z2 components and its architecture).
I don't know. You may be right, but I don't think so. We'll have to wait and see.
To clarify my standpoint: I am not an opponent of Zope3 but Zope 3 does not convince me in the current stage and gives me little attraction for the projects I am working on....it just can not compete with Zope 2 if you are building large-scale systems at this time.
Absolutely! Nor should it try to compete at this time. If you want the same level of functionality that's in Zope 2, then use Zope 2. Zope 3 isn't there yet. OTOH, Zope 3 does have some advantages for some applications. That's why people are building production apps with it now, even though there isn't a production release. That's why we're working very hard to make a production-quality release of what we have now, even though it doesn't do everything that it needs to do in the long term. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
From: "Jim Fulton" <jim@zope.com>
Year checkins people 2002 7090 33 2003 5276 34 2004 1103 24 # First 3 1/2 months
There is some decline, as one would expect in a mature product.
Also, I expect most people is like me. I only fix bugs if they bite me, and I understand them OR if there is a bugday, and I understand them and I'm not too stressed out at the office. This means that we need more bugdays. A typical bugday squishes a whole bunch of bugs. They bugs will be harder to squish the more bugdays we have, since the easy one will be squished first, but no matter.
Lennart Regebro wrote:
This means that we need more bugdays. A typical bugday squishes a whole bunch of bugs. They bugs will be harder to squish the more bugdays we have, since the easy one will be squished first, but no matter.
Whatever happened to the plan to have a monthly bug day on the last monday of each month or somesuch? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From: "Chris Withers" <chris@simplistix.co.uk>
Whatever happened to the plan to have a monthly bug day on the last monday of each month or somesuch?
Nothing, as usual, I guess. Even since bugdays where first thought of, more of then and more regular bugdays have been promised, but it doesn't happen.
Lennart Regebro wrote:
From: "Chris Withers" <chris@simplistix.co.uk>
Whatever happened to the plan to have a monthly bug day on the last monday
of
each month or somesuch?
Nothing, as usual, I guess. Even since bugdays where first thought of, more of then and more regular bugdays have been promised, but it doesn't happen.
What would happen if we, as a community, decided to have regular bug-days o nthe last Friday or Monday or every month? Accounce on zope-dev@zope.org, zope@zope.org, zope.org itself (if it's ever working ;-) ) and the nget together on irc.freenode.net #zope-dev... I don't mind being the "official announcer and hassler" if people are happy for me to have that role :-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 12:47, Chris Withers wrote:
Accounce on zope-dev@zope.org, zope@zope.org, zope.org itself (if it's ever working ;-) ) and the nget together on irc.freenode.net #zope-dev...
I don't mind being the "official announcer and hassler" if people are happy for me to have that role :-)
+1, it would be great if someone stepped up to organize this...
Chris McDonough wrote:
Accounce on zope-dev@zope.org, zope@zope.org, zope.org itself (if it's ever working ;-) ) and the nget together on irc.freenode.net #zope-dev...
I don't mind being the "official announcer and hassler" if people are happy for me to have that role :-)
+1, it would be great if someone stepped up to organize this...
Cool, well, unless I hear otherwise, I'll start agitating post Casey's bug day on April 29th... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Chris Withers wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
From: "Chris Withers" <chris@simplistix.co.uk>
Whatever happened to the plan to have a monthly bug day on the last monday
of
each month or somesuch?
Nothing, as usual, I guess. Even since bugdays where first thought of, more of then and more regular bugdays have been promised, but it doesn't happen.
What would happen if we, as a community, decided to have regular bug-days o nthe last Friday or Monday or every month?
Accounce on zope-dev@zope.org, zope@zope.org, zope.org itself (if it's ever working ;-) ) and the nget together on irc.freenode.net #zope-dev...
I don't mind being the "official announcer and hassler" if people are happy for me to have that role :-)
+1 Doesn't really need to be "official" though, does it? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
Jim Fulton wrote:
- The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages), usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.
Yes, that's a bad situation. We (meaning the Zope community) need to do something about this. Sigh.
Then maybe you (being Zope Corp) could remove the big barriers that some people perceive in the legal document you want them to sign? That appears to be what's killing help on Zope.org. Me? I don't care, since i know it's neither in ZC's interest or my interest for anything to go to court, and even if it did, either side can find a lawyer who will tear that piece of paper to shreds to suite whichever side is paying him more... I just don't have any time ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Jim Fulton wrote at 2004-4-21 11:39 -0400:
Andreas Jung wrote:
... I am sure that more are willing to contribute more than at the moment.
Great! Where are they?
I, for example, would but I am scared away by the required promise to defend ZC against any potential patent claim related to my checkins. As in the US almost any triviality seems to be patentable, I consider this too big a risk... -- Dieter
participants (16)
-
Andreas Jung -
Andreas Jung -
Casey Duncan -
Chris McDonough -
Chris Withers -
Dieter Maurer -
Fred Yankowski -
Jamie Heilman -
Jim Fulton -
Lennart Regebro -
Martijn Faassen -
Max M -
Paul Winkler -
Seb Bacon -
Simon Michael -
Stephan Richter