Re: [Zope-dev] declarePublic and users
Shane Hathaway wrote:
Chris McDonough wrote:
seb bacon wrote:
* Chris McDonough <chrism@digicool.com> [010903 18:42]:
Yeah, this is due to a shortcut in authentication. I don't particularly like this behavior. It bites lots of people. I wonder if we could change it.
I think so, FWIW. As you say, this behaviour is a result of an implementation shortcut, rather than by design; I doubt the performance benefits outweigh the silliness of the resulting behaviour. I thought I remembered someone from ZC saying it was changed for 2.4, though?
Geez, I don't think so... maybe you mean the "Authenticated" role being added?
I'd say ditch the current behavior if we can be reasonably certain that nothing important (especially in the ZMI) depends on it.
Anybody want to write a fishbowl proposal? ;-)
No, Seb is right. As of Zope 2.4.x, authentication always occurs now. We did some tests with different configurations and nothing broke so we fixed it for good. :-)
Shane
Is it Christmas already? This has been bugging people almost forever, and I'm sure caused a lot of wasted hours to a lot of people. It could have been changed at any time, but until now nobody cared. Same thing with the orphan=3 problem, which was one of the all-time greatest FAQs, and could have been fixed a long time ago, but was suddenly fixed a couple of weeks ago. Where is this new wind of cooperation and helpfulness coming from? Not that I'm complaining, but I get suspicious when an unusually high number of good things start to happen all at once. But hey, why not complain anyway. As I'm stuck with 2.3.x because of ZPatterns, I'm not going to get to enjoy these changes for quite a while. -- -- Itai Tavor -- "Je sautille, donc je suis." -- itai@optusnet.com.au -- - Kermit the Frog -- -- -- -- "If you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything" --
Itai Tavor wrote:
Where is this new wind of cooperation and helpfulness coming from? Not that I'm complaining, but I get suspicious when an unusually high number of good things start to happen all at once.
Shane and Andreas are the people you really need to thank for these two particualr issues. There is nothing corporate, magical, or cultural about it. It's basically just two guys working really hard. Note that other folks have pet peeve lists too, so what makes you happy probably makes somebody else say "why are they wasting time on that?! the real problem is over *here*" ;-) But hopefully extending commit privileges to people outside of ZC (imminent) will break the bugfix bottleneck slightly. In the meantime, please be nice to Shane and Andreas, they are really the two guys who spend the most time poring over collector issues. -- Chris McDonough Zope Corporation http://www.zope.org http://www.zope.com "Killing hundreds of birds with thousands of stones"
Chris McDonough wrote:
Itai Tavor wrote:
Where is this new wind of cooperation and helpfulness coming from? Not that I'm complaining, but I get suspicious when an unusually high number of good things start to happen all at once.
Shane and Andreas are the people you really need to thank for these two particualr issues. There is nothing corporate, magical, or cultural about it. It's basically just two guys working really hard.
Note that other folks have pet peeve lists too, so what makes you happy probably makes somebody else say "why are they wasting time on that?! the real problem is over *here*" ;-) But hopefully extending commit privileges to people outside of ZC (imminent) will break the bugfix bottleneck slightly. In the meantime, please be nice to Shane and Andreas, they are really the two guys who spend the most time poring over collector issues.
I didn't mean to be disrespectful or to imply that I'm not grateful to the people making these fixes. I'm always grateful for all the work everyone at Zope Corp are doing. And any fix to an old problem is good, no matter when it comes. I just think that when problems that are very easy to fix get dragged forever, and continue to inconvenience people for no good reason, then this is certainly a corporate/culture problem. If opening the CVS helps to change this, I'm for one will be very happy to have less things to complain about, and I'm sure other people would be happy about that ;-) -- -- Itai Tavor -- "Je sautille, donc je suis." -- itai@optusnet.com.au -- - Kermit the Frog -- -- -- -- "If you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything" --
I didn't mean to be disrespectful or to imply that I'm not grateful to the people making these fixes. I'm always grateful for all the work everyone at Zope Corp are doing. And any fix to an old problem is good, no matter when it comes.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were implying that. ;-) I wanted to give credit to the folks who are actually doing the work and provide a little insight as to where we are with bugfixes at the moment.
I just think that when problems that are very easy to fix get dragged forever, and continue to inconvenience people for no good reason, then this is certainly a corporate/culture problem. If opening the CVS helps to change this, I'm for one will be very happy to have less things to complain about, and I'm sure other people would be happy about that ;-)
Yup.
Itai Tavor wrote:
But hey, why not complain anyway. As I'm stuck with 2.3.x because of ZPatterns, I'm not going to get to enjoy these changes for quite a while.
I'm using TransactionAgents (which is a variant of ZPatterns that works with 2.4.x) on a couple of large projects, with no problems. There are no incompatible API changes between the latest release of ZPatterns, and TransactionAgents. The only externally visible change that might need changes to code is where you're using subtransactions. This is now handled better and more consistently. The change to the larger of my ZPatterns projects was that I no longer needed to commit a subtransaction at a certain point. The complex parts of TransactionAgents to do with transactions have a suite of unit tests. Here's the TransactionAgents-0.3 announcement: http://www.eby-sarna.com/pipermail/zpatterns/2001-August/000155.html -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited
Steve Alexander wrote:
Itai Tavor wrote:
But hey, why not complain anyway. As I'm stuck with 2.3.x because of ZPatterns, I'm not going to get to enjoy these changes for quite a while.
I'm using TransactionAgents (which is a variant of ZPatterns that works with 2.4.x) on a couple of large projects, with no problems.
There are no incompatible API changes between the latest release of ZPatterns, and TransactionAgents. The only externally visible change that might need changes to code is where you're using subtransactions.
This is now handled better and more consistently. The change to the larger of my ZPatterns projects was that I no longer needed to commit a subtransaction at a certain point.
The complex parts of TransactionAgents to do with transactions have a suite of unit tests.
Here's the TransactionAgents-0.3 announcement:
http://www.eby-sarna.com/pipermail/zpatterns/2001-August/000155.html
Thanks, Steve. I'm aware of TransactionAgents - I've seen all your posts on the ZPatterns list. First, ZPatterns isn't the only problem I'm not upgrading to Zope 2.4 - I only mentioned one reason, because that's not what my post was really about. LoginManager is another problem - it's got problems with Zope 2.3.x, and I have no idea what it will do in 2.4. And then here's the fact that to move my current projects to 2.4 I'll have to edit every single dtml-in loop in a hundred DTML Methods to change it to the new prefix format. Coming back to TAs - I got a couple of problems with those. First, I don't understand them. True, I haven't tried to play with them yet, but after reading the announcements and docs I have no idea what they do exactly or how they would be used, and I don't feel like tackling another steep learning curve. And second, as you say yourself in the announcement, the next ZPatterns release from Phillip and Ty might not be compatible with the TA release, and I really don't want to program myself into another dead end. Itai P.S If we're going to keep discussing ZPatterns, we should probably move it to the ZPatterns list. -- -- Itai Tavor -- "Je sautille, donc je suis." -- itai@optusnet.com.au -- - Kermit the Frog -- -- -- -- "If you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything" --
really about. LoginManager is another problem - it's got problems with Zope 2.3.x, and I have no idea what it will do in 2.4.
Steve also has a version of that which appears to work fine under 2.4 :-)
And then here's the fact that to move my current projects to 2.4 I'll have to edit every single dtml-in loop in a hundred DTML Methods to change it to the new prefix format.
Huh?! Never heard of that one, care to explain? cheers, Chris
Chris Withers wrote:
really about. LoginManager is another problem - it's got problems with Zope 2.3.x, and I have no idea what it will do in 2.4.
Steve also has a version of that which appears to work fine under 2.4 :-)
Yeah, I forgot about that one :). Steve's patch does make LM start up correctly in 2.4, and I guess it also means that at least Steve is using it successfully. I wasn't really thinking about the problem that Steve's version fixes, though. In 2.3, security checks for objects owned by a user that is defined in an LM user folder are broken, which caused me a lot of trouble. I'm just not looking forward to finding out what new problems LM got in 2.4. If anyone tells me there aren't any, I'd be very glad.
And then here's the fact that to move my current projects to 2.4 I'll have to edit every single dtml-in loop in a hundred DTML Methods to change it to the new prefix format.
Huh?! Never heard of that one, care to explain?
It's what used to be my biggest pet peeve. It comes from using sequence_xxx aliases in dtml-in loops (using a patched DT_In.py), which ZC refused to incorporate into Zope, instead implementing the prefix="..." feature. So all dtml-in loops, in all my projects, are going to break in 2.4. -- -- Itai Tavor -- "Je sautille, donc je suis." -- itai@optusnet.com.au -- - Kermit the Frog -- -- -- -- "If you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything" --
broken, which caused me a lot of trouble. I'm just not looking forward to finding out what new problems LM got in 2.4. If anyone tells me there aren't any, I'd be very glad.
Hmmm... These sort of problems do occur when products fall into an unmaintained state as LoginManager and ZPatterns have :-(
It's what used to be my biggest pet peeve. It comes from using sequence_xxx aliases in dtml-in loops (using a patched DT_In.py), which ZC refused to incorporate into Zope, instead implementing the prefix="..." feature.
well, I never did understand their objections, but lets not drag it up again...
So all dtml-in loops, in all my projects, are going to break in 2.4.
Why don't you just redo the patch so it works on 2.4 as well? cheers, Chris
Chris Withers wrote:
It's what used to be my biggest pet peeve. It comes from using sequence_xxx aliases in dtml-in loops (using a patched DT_In.py), which ZC refused to incorporate into Zope, instead implementing the prefix="..." feature.
well, I never did understand their objections, but lets not drag it up again...
So all dtml-in loops, in all my projects, are going to break in 2.4.
Why don't you just redo the patch so it works on 2.4 as well?
Because I don't understand the DT_In code well enough. And my guess is the patch won't be kept up-to-date, now that the prefix option exists. -- -- Itai Tavor -- "Je sautille, donc je suis." -- itai@optusnet.com.au -- - Kermit the Frog -- -- -- -- "If you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything" --
Itai Tavor wrote:
But hey, why not complain anyway. As I'm stuck with 2.3.x because of ZPatterns, I'm not going to get to enjoy these changes for quite a while.
Steve Alexander's TransactionAgents includes a 2.4.0-compatible release of ZPatterns... Chris
participants (5)
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Chris McDonough -
Chris McDonough -
Chris Withers -
Itai Tavor -
Steve Alexander