RE: [Zope] Re: Zope hanging (poss. threads-related)
-----Original Message----- From: Tres Seaver [mailto:tseaver@palladion.com] Sent: 13 April 2000 04:11 To: zope-dev@zope.org Cc: Monty Taylor; Michel Pelletier; Marcus Collins; Chris McDonough; Amos Latteier; Jim Fulton; Brian Lloyd Subject: Re:[Zope] Re: Zope hanging (poss. threads-related)
Firstly, it's great to see the involvement of all these brains! Thanks to all of you! Secondly, sorry for the cross-posting... please don't hang me ;-)
I would *really* like for us to capture the information flowing through the list in some less ephemeral form, so I have set up a Wiki for discussing this and other availability/stability/ reliability issues at:
http://www.zope.org/Members/tseaver/Projects/HighlyAvailableZope/ Tres, I also agree that this should not get lost amongst all the regular traffic. This list is busy enough as it is. However, perhaps other folk (Jerome Alet, others?) are just now beginning to say "me too", and so the rest of the list does need a chance to be involved. Not everyone is a member at zope.org either, and perhaps not everyone understands how Wiki works. It can also prove difficult, unless someone is moderating the posts, to not get tangled, whereas a threading mail client... this is basically just the same argument as was levelled about a week ago at the suggestion of using Wiki for bug tracking. Wiki is a fine thing, but I noticed now, when www.zope.org was back up, that despite having logged in, as soon as I when to the above URL, I was "Guest" again, and unable to annotate the discussion... (no "edit" link, etc.) Maybe this is a symptom of operator failure? For now, however, I'll continue CC'ing the zope list, unless you specifically wish it to be shunted to the zope-dev list? Maybe the other zope users have an opinion on this as well? Thanks for taking the initiative in this regard, thanks to all at DC for the ongoing support, and thanks to the list for their reports! Let's all continue together towards the solution! -- Marcus
Marcus Collins wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Tres Seaver [mailto:tseaver@palladion.com] Sent: 13 April 2000 04:11 To: zope-dev@zope.org Cc: Monty Taylor; Michel Pelletier; Marcus Collins; Chris McDonough; Amos Latteier; Jim Fulton; Brian Lloyd Subject: Re:[Zope] Re: Zope hanging (poss. threads-related)
Firstly, it's great to see the involvement of all these brains! Thanks to all of you! Secondly, sorry for the cross-posting... please don't hang me ;-)
I would *really* like for us to capture the information flowing through the list in some less ephemeral form, so I have set up a Wiki for discussing this and other availability/stability/ reliability issues at:
http://www.zope.org/Members/tseaver/Projects/HighlyAvailableZope/
Tres, I also agree that this should not get lost amongst all the regular traffic. This list is busy enough as it is. However, perhaps other folk (Jerome Alet, others?) are just now beginning to say "me too", and so the rest of the list does need a chance to be involved. Not everyone is a member at zope.org either, and perhaps not everyone understands how Wiki works. It can also prove difficult, unless someone is moderating the posts, to not get tangled, whereas a threading mail client... this is basically just the same argument as was levelled about a week ago at the suggestion of using Wiki for bug tracking.
Hmm, _I_ was the one making that argument. I guess I wasn't really urging everyone to quit posting to the list -- rather, I hoped that the community could "harvest" the information from the list and massage it into a useful format for problem solving (e.g., to make it possible to notice connections bewteen pieces of information which appear on the list at fairly disparate times). Most of the pages I put up there to start with wree attempts to categorize types of problems, and also potential sources of them.
Wiki is a fine thing, but I noticed now, when www.zope.org was back up, that despite having logged in, as soon as I when to the above URL, I was "Guest" again, and unable to annotate the discussion... (no "edit" link, etc.) Maybe this is a symptom of operator failure?
Perhaps is was a caching issue? I clicked the link, saw that I was not logged in, logged in, returned to the page, and had to force a reload to see the "Edit this page" links.
For now, however, I'll continue CC'ing the zope list, unless you specifically wish it to be shunted to the zope-dev list?
Maybe the other zope users have an opinion on this as well?
Thanks for taking the initiative in this regard, thanks to all at DC for the ongoing support, and thanks to the list for their reports! Let's all continue together towards the solution!
Thanks for posting such detailed information! Tres. -- ========================================================= Tres Seaver tseaver@digicool.com tseaver@palladion.com
Marcus Collins wrote:
http://www.zope.org/Members/tseaver/Projects/HighlyAvailableZope/
Tres, I also agree that this should not get lost amongst all the regular traffic. This list is busy enough as it is. However, perhaps other folk (Jerome Alet, others?) are just now beginning to say "me too", and so the rest of the list does need a chance to be involved.
I agree that the rest of the _community_ needs that chance. The subtle semantic change makes a difference in this case.
Not everyone is a member at zope.org either, and perhaps not everyone understands how Wiki works.
It is not because the interface is in any way complex; less complex than the interface to your mailer, or the interface to amazon.com, or ebay. Why people don't understand _why_ it works is not because they don't understand the mechanism, it's because they don't understand the philosophy of it, the Zen, so to speak. This comes only with usage and clear explanation.
It can also prove difficult, unless someone is moderating the posts, to not get tangled, whereas a threading mail client...
...has the exact same problem. Threading does not offer any refinement mechanism to the information and enforces a rather inflexible organizational structure. And personally, as a Wiki moderator, I delete agressively. If someone makes a comment then I allways reflect that comment in the material itself, or reorganize their contribution into a structure, and then I delete their comment. The information must be kept refined so as to be as clear as possible.
this is basically just the same argument as was levelled about a week ago at the suggestion of using Wiki for bug tracking.
But bug tracking is capturing and workflow, here, we want the benefits of capturing, which is what Wiki excells at. A dozen people have contributed to this thread of discussion. What platforms are they all running? How many of them are using FastCGI? What versions of Zope are they using? How many of them are running with more than 4 threads? What are their names? How can we reach them if we think we fixed the problem? What if the situation changes and there is a clue in the delta, if we don't capture the first value how do we compare it to the second?
Wiki is a fine thing, but I noticed now, when www.zope.org was back up, that despite having logged in, as soon as I when to the above URL, I was "Guest" again, and unable to annotate the discussion... (no "edit" link, etc.) Maybe this is a symptom of operator failure?
Works fine for me every time, perhaps your browser caches aggresively.
For now, however, I'll continue CC'ing the zope list, unless you specifically wish it to be shunted to the zope-dev list?
Cross-posting is frowned upon. One list or the other please. I have to strongly dissagree with your notion of continuting this thread solely on the list. Certainly the list should be used for discussion, but if relevant information is not captured then the discussion is largely moot if the good clues slip through our collective cracks. -Michel
participants (3)
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Marcus Collins -
Michel Pelletier -
Tres Seaver