Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hanno Schlichting wrote:
Tres Seaver wrote:
Hanno Schlichting wrote:
Log message for revision 96569: Lot's of updates over the weekend! I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the book: if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping it apart.
OK. I wasn't too sure either. I can put them back in, but make it clearer that using ZPT is preferred over DTML for all tasks where it is possible.
I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let people make up their own minds. DTML is *not* like ZClasses: it isn't bitrotting through lack of use, nor is it scheduled (or ever) likely to be removed from Zope2. Please keep in mind the ZMI / TTW focus of the current book, while you're at it: this book is not aimed at Python / filesystem developers at all, but at casual users working on simple TTW apps. For instance, the still-prevalent use of ZPT as a scripting language (versus a templating language) is arguably *worse* than DTML: it is harder to read, and completely breaks the original promise of ZPT (not trashing the designer's HTML). Note that *I* still (ab)use ZPT this way, because it is expedient, and because I know I can clean it up if it gets too messy, but that doesn't make it "advisable." Tres. - -- =================================================================== Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD4DBQFJmDy6+gerLs4ltQ4RAqZ/AKCmfXML8g0wdpBcWCbQlmtjFvPXbwCXczcn 5bjbN6NibFXnhmAR7+/XRw== =BP53 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 15.02.2009 17:03 Uhr, Tres Seaver wrote:
Hanno Schlichting wrote:
Tres Seaver wrote:
Hanno Schlichting wrote:
Log message for revision 96569: Lot's of updates over the weekend! I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the book: if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping it apart. OK. I wasn't too sure either. I can put them back in, but make it clearer that using ZPT is preferred over DTML for all tasks where it is possible.
I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let people make up their own minds.
DTML is *not* like ZClasses: it isn't bitrotting through lack of use, nor is it scheduled (or ever) likely to be removed from Zope2. Please keep in mind the ZMI / TTW focus of the current book, while you're at it: this book is not aimed at Python / filesystem developers at all, but at casual users working on simple TTW apps.
+1. DTML is still a 1st-class citizen of Zope 2. So the DTML documentation should remain in place. Both related DTML chapters should perhaps get a clear preface containing something like the following and/or somehow marked as "obsolete" Zope techology (obsolete in the sense that we're having better alternatives): - ZPT is the preferred and recommended way for generating HTML or markup-ish output - DTML playing only a role for ZSQL methods - DTML might be used for generating text-ish content (non-HTML, non-XML content) - DTML should really only be used if there are no other alternatives (for ZSQL methods we have SQLAlchemy based integration layers) Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmYQlkACgkQCJIWIbr9KYwvuACgjY9S9wrZmqG9mokQxP3PdpaL x0cAnRuHUHthOapIc5zPNoipX+LMP6hm =s/Yr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 11:03 -0500:
... I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let people make up their own minds.
+1 I hate the tendancy of quite a few Zope core developpers to dictate how others should develop *their* applications. -- Dieter
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 16.02.2009 18:45 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 11:03 -0500:
... I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let people make up their own minds.
+1
I hate the tendancy of quite a few Zope core developpers to dictate how others should develop *their* applications.
Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate in our dictatorship or we become deaf over time from your ongoing rumbling. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmZrokACgkQCJIWIbr9KYyJfACg3nMaligMl5asbWKKsKsJPuBz B+kAoLVvQLwUZvW42AbNQnTHesdxKjyX =kZMW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 16.02.2009 19:43 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
... Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate in our dictatorship
I will never participate in your dictatorship!
How childish. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmZtXsACgkQCJIWIbr9KYyM4wCeNKC+EwUXoj8e4bfFcxZUU1wx lEcAn0hB7ANoXhNDRfIJnUp6tF4Mdvkw =NZlx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:50 +0100:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 16.02.2009 19:43 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
... Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate in our dictatorship
I will never participate in your dictatorship!
How childish.
I hate dictatorship - consequently I will not participate. -- Dieter
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
... Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate in our dictatorship
I will never participate in your dictatorship!
Only those who participate can influence the direction. Standing on the sidelines and complaining is not helpful, neither for you nor for other developers, and certainly not for the community. jens -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkmZwdsACgkQRAx5nvEhZLJAjgCgo16HfvahaI/e9QNJU5SMtf3O N8AAn0qSADoJsrheKzVwUqI1SRxAnLkL =QIf8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Jens Vagelpohl wrote at 2009-2-16 20:43 +0100:
... On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
... Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate in our dictatorship
I will never participate in your dictatorship!
Only those who participate can influence the direction.
As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles. Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship.... -- Dieter
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 21.02.2009 11:27 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
Jens Vagelpohl wrote at 2009-2-16 20:43 +0100:
... On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
... Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate in our dictatorship I will never participate in your dictatorship! Only those who participate can influence the direction.
As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles. Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship....
Zope is like anarchy - not dictatorship. So you're fighting against non-existing enemies :-) Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmf2P4ACgkQCJIWIbr9KYwpvACdGimY5X3SCdco2XO5ghlXQd9+ lWQAn23/5LTeiHvOldSu2Dbr2vr9MgUR =vAUP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:27, Dieter Maurer <dieter@handshake.de> wrote:
As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles. Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship....
With the revolutionary eggification of the masses that is underway the dictatorship has ended. Zope 2.12 is a libertarian meritodemocracy. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:37, Lennart Regebro <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:
With the revolutionary eggification of the masses that is underway the dictatorship has ended. Zope 2.12 is a libertarian meritodemocracy.
Well, at least if you have svn access. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64
Tres Seaver wrote:
I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the book: if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping it apart.
and
I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let people make up their own minds.
+1 to both.
participants (6)
-
Andreas Jung -
Dieter Maurer -
Jens Vagelpohl -
Lennart Regebro -
Simon Michael -
Tres Seaver