RE: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] RE: [Zope] Barriers to Zope popularity: Part 1: wysiwig editing wysiwig editing Part 1: wysiwig editing wysiwig editing
-----Original Message----- From: Martijn Pieters [mailto:mj@antraciet.nl] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 22:09 To: Dody Gunawinata; Phil Harris Cc: Jay, Dylan; zope@zope.org; zope-dev@zope.org Subject: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] RE: [Zope] Barriers to Zope popularity: Part 1: wysiwig editing wysiwig editing
Much of the documentation is designed with *advance* developers in mind. It's time for Zope for Dummies.
Dody
What many people forget here is that Zope is a Web Application Platform. It is, first and foremost, designed as a framework for applications.
All the DTML Methods and Folder objects and whatnot, are standard objects to help you design an interface, they are part of and build upon the Zope framework. Together with the ZODB, security, the web interface, the marshalling of variable types and RDBMS integration, Zope makes one heck of a Web Application Platform.
Zope was designed for Web Application Developers, not designers. The documentation follows this design. I actually feel that dummies should stay away from Zope. Frontpage is for dummies.
I disagree. I believe the ideal place Zope could end up is as being something that was as simple to use as frontpage and as powerful as ... well as it already is. I'm not saying that the "simpler" users should be able to as powerfull things as "programmer" type users can but it should not be unaccessable to them. They should be able to edit and add basic documents. I don't want to be the only one who does all the editing of documents with zope. I think the solution I suggested with embedding the DTML inside an expanded (rendered?) document is very workable. It would allow a novice user to edit a DTML document that is potentially in many parts without destroying the DTML.
"Jay, Dylan" wrote:
What many people forget here is that Zope is a Web Application Platform. It is, first and foremost, designed as a framework for applications.
All the DTML Methods and Folder objects and whatnot, are standard objects to help you design an interface, they are part of and build upon the Zope framework. Together with the ZODB, security, the web interface, the marshalling of variable types and RDBMS integration, Zope makes one heck of a Web Application Platform.
Zope was designed for Web Application Developers, not designers. The documentation follows this design. I actually feel that dummies should stay away from Zope. Frontpage is for dummies.
I disagree. I believe the ideal place Zope could end up is as being something that was as simple to use as frontpage and as powerful as ... well as it already is. I'm not saying that the "simpler" users should be able to as powerfull things as "programmer" type users can but it should not be unaccessable to them. They should be able to edit and add basic documents. I don't want to be the only one who does all the editing of documents with zope.
Having been playing with Zope for some time now, I know Zope is amazingly customizable! With that customizability comes the huge requirement, right now, to set up the framework/structure that you will use to build your web site with. (The ZPT might make this easy to setup but will never be a complete solution, someone correct me if I'm wrong). A well thought out design and implementation might provide management interfaces that would go as far as displaying the structure of the layout with direct links to edit content. (this could be done right now and is how i'm currently building my framework). The best idea I've seen on in this thread is the Mozilla editor. I'll be studying the xul and other stuff as I have time too. I already downloaded Mozilla once but never looked at how it could be extended. Maybe a soon to be created Zope project will make it as easy as Frontpage to work with content. But most of the structure/framewok will have to be implemented on a higher level. The best part about Zope that I've seen so far is its not complete and is being added to constantly.
I think the solution I suggested with embedding the DTML inside an expanded (rendered?) document is very workable. It would allow a novice user to edit a DTML document that is potentially in many parts without destroying the DTML.
This sounds like another possible solution for transferring the content between the web interface and (insert your favorite editor here). Something that will no doubt be used if available. (Might be workable for the current level stuff, mainly content and properties) Keep the ideas coming :) David, tone..
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On Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:41:29AM +1000, Jay, Dylan wrote:
I disagree. I believe the ideal place Zope could end up is as being something that was as simple to use as frontpage and as powerful as ... well as it already is. I'm not saying that the "simpler" users should be able to as powerfull things as "programmer" type users can but it should not be unaccessable to them. They should be able to edit and add basic documents. I don't want to be the only one who does all the editing of documents with zope.
Well, you needn't be. The pointof Zope -- from my view -- is that it makes it easy for me, as a designer, for me to make it easy for you, as a site manager to get your work done. The _question_ here is, _how easy_ does it make _my_ part of that job; and yeah, I think it could be a bit easier for me to grasp. Much of that is the current lack of documentation -- I'm waiting for Zope for Dummies :-) -- the remainder is the lack of _medium_ level pre-built infrastructure for me to build on and modify to get my work done. That Zop allows me to break out into the low level stuff (DTML, ZSQL, and even external methods) is fantastic -- and a requirement -- but there is currently still quite a bit of mid-level work that a potentisl site develope, like me, needs to do -- and that therefore, will be getting done more than once. Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Buy copies of The New Hackers Dictionary. The Suncoast Freenet Give them to all your friends. Tampa Bay, Florida http://www.ccil.org/jargon/ +1 813 790 7592
participants (3)
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David Kankiewicz -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Jay, Dylan