[ZDP] portal comments..

[Christian Scholz]

Hi!

> Christian Scholz wrote:
> > > > Also if they do the search it might not be that clear how to add
> > > > information. There should be some button/whatever.
> > >
> > > We can surround every single bit of content in it's Topic from
> > > the Portals ! For example when you get to a Howto
> > > via a Search, but this Howto is presented embedded in the
> > > Community/Subject/Topic/ hierarchy. This allows people to jump
> > > back to the Topic/Subject/Community again. Then adding a
> > > comment would mean adding it to the Topic instead of to the
> > > document, although it should also be possible to add a
> > > comment to a specific document, but I don't know how.
> > 
> > Hm, I don't think I understand this.. ;-)
> 
> We have some content that is not in the Portal, like all the projects
> and the information that is stored in the member area. Still, this
> information has got meta-tags like Subject, Topic and Community that
> point to a place in the meta-hierarchy. Right now all of these
> documents are shown outside the meta-content. We need a way to get
> back to the meta hierachy from each of these documents. The idea is
> to show the visitor the meta-context in some way, or embed the
> document inside it. I am not sure how to do this, but I think it 
> may be done by presenting a showt form of the meta-hierarchy to the
> left, and the point where the visitor is right now is highlighted.

It's definitely is getting clearer now.. :)

> > > >  I think that the main goal of ZDP should be to provide information
> > > >  and the second to gather it.
> > >
> > > We are providing existing information on the ZDP site through
> > > the Portals now. Gathering the new information is done first
> > > by the community. The ZDP is then responsible for separating
> > > the good stuff and put it in front. Also, we need to delete
> > > bad information and generally moderate discussions that may
> > > come up.
> > 
> > I know but again I think that most users will come to find information
> > and they might be frustrated in seeing that everywhere they click they
> > only get empty pages. So at first it looks like "Hey cool, so much stuff"
> > when seeing all the portals but then they might quickly get disappointed.
> 
> You have to see that the situation right now is more than frustrating.
> People have real problems to find the stuff they need anyway. The ZDP is
> not going to make this situation worse. Instead people now can see the
> problem space much clearer because it is really complex and we have made
> a hierarchy out of it. Now, it is only necessary to do some marketing,
> and tell people that the emptiness of the ZDP site is a great chance
> for the Zope community to share their knowledge.

What I think is that there might be needed a critical mass before this
works..

> Do you think we should warn people on the site that there is not yet
> too much information, and that they should put it in themselves ? Maybe
> necessary ...

Hm, I wonder if you should be able to see from the type of the links
if there's any information behind them. E.g. I again got a little frustrated
when looking through the interface wiki and many of the links did not yet
contain any data (I just was browsing if something might interest me).

If I would know before if there's content or not it might be better.
Stays the question of how to show that ;-) (maybe good links in bold and
"bad" links in normal font weight?!?)

> > But with the "Add *" buttons now it might be clear at least that information
> > could be added (thus maybe not directly by the people who were searching for it).
> 
> Still, they can point out their problems !

Ok, but maybe even this does not get clear. I guess comments should be used
for this but when I see the site at first I think that comments only will be
used for commenting existing information. Maybe this should also be made a little
clearer by explaining it.

> > I think at least there should be some description what there is supposed
> > to be at the actual item where I am.
> 
> Something like: 
> 
> "We still need to write an abstract here. Maybe you can help us by writing
> a comment below, so we can take it over up here in the moderator area."

I dunno if this is good.. At least the abstract should somehow be provided by us ;-)
At least we know best what we think should be put inside the specific area.

[..]

> > Cool, now also the links are under the words and not just the icons.
> > This might be changed at other places, too.
> 
> So, generally forget the icons and put links under everything ?

I would omit the icons if they're not giving additional information, e.g.
if the list consists of one document type anyway (like the members list).
If there will be objects of many types in a list, icons might be useful
if people know what they mean. Right now this might be a bit difficult as
there are quite many icons which are quite colorful.
I think this can be kept for now but icons in lists of only one type I would
remove.

> > Now I would also remove the icon next to "Members" as this points to
> > the same page.
> 
> Remove all links back to the same page ? Have you read some columns
> by Jacob Nielsen ? ;-)

No, should I? :)

> > (and thinking of the ZDP News page I would also remove the icons next
> > to the news items. I don't think we will need to jump to a page with
> > only the one news item on it.).
> 
> Right, but this may change. Do you think generally the icons are useless ?

As said above: If they are giving some more information they're ok. This depends
on how well the icons are done and match the meta_type of the objects. 
I also have to think about this a little and maybe experiment with some stuff.

> > >       Maybe the nesting is also a little bit deep..
> > > >       (like ZDP  >  Portals  >  Members  >  Tasks  >  Task  )
> > >
> > > Or we need to put the meta information above:
> > >
> > > ZDP Portals > Portals > Community: "Members" > Subject: "Tasks" > Topic: "Task"
> > 
> > I dunno yet how to change it and will think about it. Actually I think that
> > you need to many links right now before you find information (if there is any).
> 
> Do you think it would be enough to have one click to a portal, one click to 
> the topic and then one click to the content ? Would that be ok ?

I also will think about this a little more and maybe experiment with it a little :)

> > The Joining aspect might be also interesting as you will notice which
> > users (which are identified by then) are contributing much and how
> > valuable these contributions are. Then you could ask them to be a
> > moderator or to be able to add things without reviewing/whatever.
> 
> I'll have to wait until we have Loginmanager for this.

I don't think that this has highest priority.. I also have a list of what else
can be done with identified users. I will post it later..

> > > > Put also the names of the contributors near their
> > > > contributions that they have some motivation to add content.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the hint. I have added this.
> > 
> > Good :) The layout is maybe not optimal as it might to much space
> > when more links are there. When I have some time I will try to make
> > some proposals regarding layout of some pages (if you don't mind).
> 
> I would be delighted if you could propose some layouts. I think 
> we may have to show the links, comments, questions and drafts added
> by users in a short form with only the title. Maybe the oldest 
> documents can go to an archive, and the newest stuff can be shown
> in full ?

Again I will experiment with it and show you the results.. At the weekend
I should have some time for that.

> > I didn't say that the development should be top secret ;-) I just was thinking
> > of maybe two servers, one "stable" and one "unstable". I just don't want to
> > confuse the user with daily changing layouts ;-)
> 
> I take my sig very serious here (Please remember that I have written
> the first draft for the portal only 11 days ago):
> 
> Open Source is "about being able to work together with people you've
> never  met, on projects that  are in  a constant state  of flux,  on 
> a time schedule  that would  cause a  hummingbird's  head to  spin."

Ok :) 

> > Good, I also know how much work it is and that it's quite a big project.
> > And it will maybe never finished (is there any finished project?!?). I will also
> > help where I can.
> 
> Great !
>  
> > Maybe we can also meet (aren't you in Bonn or the area? I'm in Aachen so not that
> > far away) and discuss things a bit easier.. ;-)
> 
> We can make a ZDP developer meeting in Aachen. Are there any other people
> on the list interested in joining us ? ;-)

I hope I don't get trouble if there're too many to organise a room ;-)

FYI: I will get my wisdom teeth out next week and thus I might not be that 
available then.. 

Well, gotta got and carry my records to the pub.. :)

cheers,
  Christian