[Zope-CMF] Re: collaboration/cmf & breaking down the walls

[Tres Seaver]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, alan runyan wrote:

> how do they go abotu doing this in the CMF?  it seems that the
> CMF works very well when it comes to adding autonomous 'content
> objects' that need to be put through some sort of process,
> workflow - what have you and then be published through some
> type of 'view' (which programatically renders them).  This
> still makes for akward collobration when you have a branch of
> documentation
> 
> /products/servers/monitoring/monitor2000
> /products/servers/monitoring/krad-sniffer2001
> /products/servers/monitoring/hax0r-tracker3000
> 
> instead of simply having  html in these places you are going to
> have a content object 'product' with sub-product being
> 'servers' and the subject/type being 'monitoring' and then the
> id or title  of the product, 'hax0r-tracker3000' so 3 people
> want to colloborate on this: designers/programmer/manager.  it
> cant easily be done unless you ahve the traditional ZOPE
> interface where we can have /Products/Servers/Monitoring folder
> and have different content in the folder.  people can see them,
> the designer can upload images to the /images/products/server
> directory and the programmer can program, and the PHB can click
> on each one and browse each one.
> 
> how does this break down in the CMF model?  it appears that
> most things end up being /Members/tseaver/monitor2000 and
> /Members/runyaga/krad-sniffer2001 ?  it seems akward to me.

You can address this two ways under the CMF:

 - Give members with particular roles the right to create content
   in '/products/servers/monitoring' (giving them 'Owner' local
   role there would be simplest).  They will then be able to see
   the 'folder_contents' action when viewing the folder, etc.
   This is simple, given a zenful site manager

 - Set up your workflow so that objects get moved out of their
   member folders and into the "right" location as part of the
   approval process.  The 'portal_workflow' interface actually
   contemplates this, along with the notion that the permission
   settings / ownership for the object may change during a
   workflow transition.  This requires programming, but may be
   very appealing for some kinds of implementations.

> I havent done an implementation of CMF so I dont know if this
> is a problem but I think its a conceptual hurdle laymen would
> have to possibly overcome -- lets break down the walls.
> 
> ---which leads me to breaking down the walls ---
> 
> I am on a crusade in Houston, TX. to convert the Designer
> Mindset into ZOPE.  I am attending weekly events held by the
> two art director associations and hand out CMF/ZOPE slicks -
> digicoo.com/Products.  I did it last Friday and I believe it
> was a success.  I have a designer working very closely with me
> on the CMF and he sees it as a being a path of least
> resistenance to empower him to give his clients the ability to
> update their websites.  SQL/RDBMS/Programming is out of the
> question for designers - especially the indepedant designer.
> CMF is a really good point of reference (although having a
> .props file that contains variables that the stylesheet.dtml
> file renders -- i believe is a bit over-engineered).  I think
> the lay man and designer needs to be targeted with CMF.

The properties file is intended to allow customization by people
who *don't know CSS*, and don't want to.  The distinction you are
drawing between designers and programmers needs another:
"content" people are neither, and are the primary audience of the
CMF.  See:

  http://cmf.zope.org/Members/tseaver/lions_den

> CMF has a very powerful notion of 'skins'.  Skins are the
> interface(s) of the content mgmt system.  Skins are the only
> things designers need to customize in the CMF to give a client
> a really impressive website.  It comes stock with quite a bit
> of 'content types' (although it would be nice maybe to have a
> 'Active' on the types so they could go in there and 'disable'
> content types for clients who have no need to add images, I am
> not a big fan of deleting things out of default installs)

Changing the name of the factory method to something non-existent
will have this effect.  Patches accepted for a slicker approach,
of course. :)

> and I
> believe the independant web house has quite a bit to benefit
> from the CMF, as it stands.  There just needs to be a crusade
> of awareness and non-geek documentation to get people
> interested.
> 
> I am working w/ a designer to put together a skin, 'cluetrain'
> skin, and hopefully it will be done by the time I goto Jazzfest
> Thursday.  There is a gap, a wall that needs to be broken down
> for there to be widespread acceptance to designers.  A start
> would be making the CMF site prettier ;) -- also finding a few
> design firms to champion the CMF cause doesnt hurt.  I met a
> guy from a international design firm and am going to try to
> convince them to help polish things up -- most designers are
> jazzed about the Open-source philosophy, but dont want to hear
> about 'types-tools' and other 'techie' mumbo jumbo (or rather
> want the option to filter it out).  From my sitdowns over the
> past 2 weeks, people are *extremely* interested in ZOPE.
> 
> - has a low entry point ( aka 'low fuck with it factor' ) -
> just d/l and double click on install. (please make ZServer OOTB
> on port 80)  - to be expected from a good product

ZServer won't run on port 80 OOTB by default;  perhaps someone
will submit a patch to the installer to make that a promptable
option. :)

> - ZMI - is fairly intuitive.  but as Emerald Lagasse says, we
> need to 'take it to another level'  (? i havent seen the show
> in awhile) - bearable
>
> - being able to put a ZOPE on CD (which doesnt get enough
> press) - exciting
>
> - CMF - let the designer skin/let the programmer script (not a
> consistent metaphor, in the XP sense) - very exciting
>
> - PageTemplates or rather how I explained them (which I dont
> know if its correct;) - very very exciting
> 
> if anyone in houston is working w/ the CMF and wants to help me
> put on a ZOPE/CMF seminar please get in touch with me.
> 
> trying to bridge the designer gap,

Thanks for your efforts, and for excellent feedback!

Tres.
-- 
===============================================================
Tres Seaver                                tseaver@digicool.com
Digital Creations     "Zope Dealers"       http://www.zope.org