[Zope-PTK] CMF some basic Q

[Bill Anderson]

On 15 Mar 2001 22:22:54 -0500, Jeffrey P Shell wrote:
> on 3/15/01 8:41 PM, Bill Anderson at bill@libc.org wrote:
> 
> > On 15 Mar 2001 13:34:04 -0500, Jeffrey P Shell wrote:
> >> On 3/15/01 2:54 AM, "Bill Anderson" <bill@libc.org> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> On a related note, is there any way short of a restart of Zoe to refresh
> >>> the filesystem non-customized stylesheets?
> >>> 
> >>> The ones provided don't expose enough (select a black background and
> >>> tell me how well your h[1-n] tags come out, for example ;) , and while
> >>> building a new one, it sucks to have to restart my zope server to see
> >>> the effect of moving a margin or two...
> >>> 
> >>> Bill
> >> 
> >> Why are you modifying the ones on the file system instead of through the web
> >> in custom folders?  Whenever I'm doing any experimenting in skins, even in
> >> something planned to go into the core distribution, I always do it in a
> >> custom folder so I can see the effects quickly.  If it's something meant to
> >> go into a distribution, I'll copy my changes to the file system after I've
> >> tested them this way.
> > 
> > 
> > Cuz you can't _just_ modify the few options provided, that's why. Much
> > stuff is still hard-coded, and not accessible in the TTW customize
> > option.  For example, the color of your the header tags is black.
> > Period. Looking at the stylesheet from the FS, you can see it is
> > hard-coded, by not providing an variable to be substituted. No variable,
> > no TTW customization.
> > 
> > A few other things are needed occasionally, such as changing padding
> > sizes, or margins. None of these are available TTW. Sure, I can change
> > those and make variable for them, but that is -still- changing the file,
> > and not using a customized instance TTW. It would still require a
> > restart.
> 
> Which file are you referring to?  In generic/default_style_sheet.dtml, there
> is:
> 
> h1 {
> font-size: 120%;
> font-weight: bold;
> color: &dtml-base_font_color;;
> }


I misspoke, that is _still_ the same color as  the rest of the page's
font. I cannot change _just_ the heading's color, I have to change my
font color for everything not explicity redefined later. To change it
-still- requires changing the FS, no? If i want to add a
&dtml-header-color;, I need to change the FS version (which is cool),
and restart zope (which is not).

> 
> If you want to change that color with skins, you can do it a couple of ways:
> 
>  (1) Go to portal_skins/generic/default_style_sheet (in the Zope Management
>      Interface) and hit 'customize' to copy it into a custom folder.  Go
>      down to the h1 declaration and change color by hand - not referring to
>      any DTML variable.
> 
>  (2) Go to portal_skins/generic/stylesheet_properties in the ZMI and do
>      a 'customize' on it.  Find the property for 'base_font_color' and
>      change the property to reflect your desired color.


And watch the rest of my page (with few exceptions) follow suit). :^)=

> 
>  (c) Do both!  The stylesheet_properties are just an attempt to give
>      some convenience over having to write\edit stylesheet code just
>      to change a color, but you should be able to extend the
>      customized style sheet to either accept more properties or have your
>      own hardcoded values.
> With skins, it allows us to distribute the default
> look and feel in a way that should discourage tinkering with the original
> sources (the file system DTML), but encourage easy customization by letting
> the source from the file system be easily copied to a folder in the skins
> tool which would get name-lookup-precedence over the file system folders.
> *ALL* of the DTML that is in the file system should customizable through the
> web.  If this isn't working, it is either a bug in our code, or my fault for
> not completing my documentation task. :)
> 
> I'm going to be out for a couple of days (one final ski weekend, hazzah!),
> but I hope this message helps or someone else on the team can help.


Right, I understand about the custom  folder and customizing, but that
_only_ allows you to change the provided property variables. Let us
continue with the example. So headers have the same color as the rest of
the base color. Say I want my text to be black, and headers to be dark
blue. I go to the stylesheet, click customize, and change that how? I
can't, through the web. There is no (on the provided stylesheet objects)
way to do that through the web. To do that _requires_ a change in
something on the FS, does it not? Now, if you are saying I could drop a
ZStyleSheet instance n 'custom' instead, and that should work, woohoo,
that would be nice.

Another example is the size of the text in the Actionsbox. To change
that requires a change in the FS-level. I see that it gives it a
proportional size, but it seems no matter how LARGE I make the base font
size, it doesn't change. Mebbe that's a bug, i dunno, but it's annoying
enough I went to the FS to change it.

To provide yet another argument for the FSView stuff not mandating a
restart ...
Let's say I want ot add a CSS class, or change an existing one. Again,
to the FS I go.
Now, I actually like this myself, as I can use cvs to have control over
the CSS, use my favourite CSS editor (mmm gvim), and distribute updates
to a site's default styles using python on the skins tree, along with
diffs. The problem is I need to restart the site to see the changes, or
run the site in debug. Debug is fine _sometimes_, but it is not a good
default running mode on a production site. Especially when you are
running ZEO, and many, many zopesites that need to start up when you
boot the system.  I don't want tracebacks on pages, just the error
message. Zope' tracebacks throws tables all out of whack, severely
disrupting the page.

All I am arguing for, is that Filesystem views should auto-update when
changed, without running debug mode on the server(s).

O, one more example for clarity, and perhaps inspiration for some. Here
is something I am doing. Live examples rule!

I have a server with multiple portals in it. Each CMF Portal can
customize the colors/fonts of their default stylesheet. Yet, if I go in
and change the default_stylesheet.dtml, that change is still propogated
(all you do when customizing the stylesheet  TTW is change the
colors/fonts, nothing else). In order fo the changes I make to the
default, the site needs restarted. Not good, IMO. Say I had an h2 tag. I
need to restart the entire server for an h2 tag addition. Now, as I
understand it, there is no way for me to add that TTW anyway, and would
have to do that for several CMF Portals if I could.

All clicking 'customize' does, AFAICT, is allow you to change the
provided property values, nohting more.

IMO, debug is for debugging, not for standard, simple, non-code changes.

Well, I'll quit rambling on now ...

Bill