[Zope-dev] Zope Futures discussion: your input

Chris McDonough chrism@digicool.com
Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:06:24 -0500


I agree that we have lots of work to do on making Zope more
understandable and faster to "get a grip on".  We're struggling right
now with what it means to do that, whether it means concentrating on
documentation, building a simpler interface, ripping stuff out or
what-have-you.  Examples of the community and DC trying to address these
problems are evident in the Zope Mozilla Initiative, the
soon(really!)-to-be-released Portal Toolkit, and the shiny new help
system that Amos has been working hard on.  Unfortunately, all of it
takes time. 

My opinion, for what its worth, is that DTML is valuable because it lets
non-Python programmers have a crack at building simple dynamic pages in
an environment that they're familiar with (ie. in the context and style
of HTML).  But I do think that we've possibly allowed DTML to overstep
its bounds as a reporting language, and now we've got people trying to
make it do things that could be infinitely better handled in Python.

But we've also got external methods and Evan Simpson has contributed
Python Methods.  So I think we're slowly reaching a point where Zope is
an ideal environment for Python programmers and a less ideal but still
very usable environment for non-Python programmers.  I would suggest
giving both tools a workout.

I also would suggest that if you've got the time, we could definitely
use your help simplifying Zope in other ways.  For example, both the
Zope Mozilla Initiative and the Zope Documentation Project could use
reliable expert help.  Both projects are extremely interesting too.

Federico Di Gregorio wrote:
> 
> Scavenging the mail folder uncovered Stefan Kuzminski's letter:
> > >>>>> ">" == Ross Boylan <rboylan@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> > Simplification..
> >
> > I couldn't agree more with this assessment, Zope is beautiful and powerful but
> > just finding the right level to code at can be a challenge. The relationship
> > between browser/dtml and the python space is especially difficult to decypher,
> > especially from the dtml side. I'm not convinced of the value of dtml since
> > Python is so easy to learn and using a markup language for programming tasks
> > leaves something to be desired..
> 
> i have to say that <aol>i agree too.</aol> i had a discussion some days
> ago with some co-workers using zope about the "why they did put in dtml
> instead of using plain python?" some people expressed the desire to have
> access to full python in zope, others said that learning dtml is easier
> and faster than learning a full programming language.
> 
> so the question is: do you developers think that adding python support
> (maybe into a dtml tag, as a product) is feasible?
> 
> ciao,
> federico
> 
> --
> Federico Di Gregorio
> MIXAD LIVE System Programmer                           fog@mixadlive.com
> Debian GNU/Linux Developer & Italian Press Contact        fog@debian.org
>                            Don't dream it. Be it. -- Dr. Frank'n'further
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-Dev maillist  -  Zope-Dev@zope.org
> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
> **  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
> (Related lists -
>  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

-- 
Chris McDonough - Digital Creations, Inc.
Publishers of Zope - http://www.zope.org