[Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:10:47 +0000

My Two Cents

I don't regularly post to zope-dev, simply because there are many other
people in the zope community who can answer the questions just as well i
as could.  But i remain subscribed, reading an post that catch my
attention.

I have read Mr. Milton's posts carefully, and although i sense a fair
bit of emotion in his words what he has to say i think is quite
important.

I know Andy from #zope, I am one of the people who seek to give advise
on #zope.  I am also the co-partner in the New Information Paradigms
(NIP) Zope department, along with Chris Withers, So I do have a vested
interest in Zope and I do care about Zopes image, direction and cause
but I wouldn't go broke if Zope turned bad.

Andy is right when he says he has a small voice, but as anyone who knows
him will already know, When he does say something people have no choice
but to listen, perhaps its because of his gung-ho attitude. (which isn't
necessarily a bad thing)

He has a point about code, it being messy, unthought through or just
simply inadequate.  I am not blaming any body, but sometimes it is very
hard to provide the opposite on a product that has been growing
continually for over three years.

In fact I would go as far to say that considering the product have been
growing for over three years, of which I have been interested for over
two, i think the code has been well maintained.  I personally think one
of Zope major contributors to untidiness is in its backwards
compatibility.

Which brings me to a question to ZC: How far does Zopes backwards
compatibility stretch?  When will the  syntax no
longer be wasting space inside the core code?, When will i get an error
when I try to do a PARENTS[0]?.  Its very hard to tell someone that
PARENTS has been depreciated when it still works.

What i am trying to say is perhaps there is some backwards compatibility
that we don't need, and by reducing the backwards compatibility perhaps
we (notice i use we, i mean the community not just ZC) can tidy up some
code, and make the tar.gz smaller by getting rid of some of that cruft.

To be honest i would be happy for Zope 3 not to be backwards
compatible.  Tidy it up, delete the unless code, dare i say it -
refactor.  Yes so my products will break, well half a days refactoring
myself and i have a tidier more understandable project anyway.

I'll get back to what i originally wanted to say.

and that is: Don't judge Andy Milton too harshly for speaking up.  And
don't judge him in the way that he did it.  Instead put your on
judgments aside and read what he actually has to say.

Personally, I agree with some of it and i disagree with other parts of
it.  But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Thanks for listening to my rant, I hope it helped the cause.

-Andy Dawkins (AndyD)
(oh know, another bloody Andy)

Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:
> 
> Since I seem to be the cause of all hell breaking loose over here, I thought
> take the opportunity to respond, since I haven't really been given an
> opportunity to do that. Since this probably going to be my only ever
> posting to zope-dev, I don't feel constrained to be brief in exercising my
> right of reply.
> 
> I'm not going to apologise for the comments I made, or the manner in which I
> made them. Those comments were made on a list run by me, basically for my own
> amusement. If I had posted either of those emails to someone else's list, I'd
> quite rightly deserve to be fried.
> 
> I don't make money from Zope Development (I don't make money), I don't
> run a website, in fact, I don't actually use any of the products I have
> released. So it's not like I have a vested interest in Zope. My fortunes don't
> rest on the success or failure of Zope or any one of its components. I live
> in a country the size of the USA that has the approximate population of
> New York State. Even if I stood on a busy street corner with a loud hailer,
> the number of people I could actually influence would be small. This makes
> me one of the people in the trenches.
> 
> It is the people who are in the trenches who are increasingly being
> disaffected by Zope Corp, it seems as if you're not subscribed to zope-dev,
> you have no voice, and for most people zope-dev is not an appropriate forum
> for them to be subscribed to. As some of you know, I was hounded off of the
> zope@ mailing list for suggesting that there be some other mailing list
> for more technical discussion. People were very upset, because, they
> already have a hard time getting any support. Noone from Zope Corp seems
> to monitor the list to help out. The zope list was manned by people like
> me volunteering expertise and time to help more of the little people.
> 
> A lot of those people come to the irc channel, which is also rarely if
> ever visited by anyone from Zope Corp. Most people know that #zope is the
> place to go when all else fails. The major irony of this is, that most
> of the people seeking help on #zope are working with it, or consulting with
> it, and are supported by me and others for free. We are the ones that
> deal with the 'general zope public.' We are the defenders of the faith.
> 
> The Zope Weekly News, which turned into Zope Monthly News, which now
> has not been updated since October is a joke. It shows Zope Corporation's
> attitude towards their community. It says "We don't care about our community."
> I'm sure that's not the feeling of the *individuals* inside Zope Corp, I'm
> sure it is (or I hope it is) a source of great embarassment to those
> individuals that work for Zope Corp.
> 
> Letting your community showpiece atrophy doesn't show any great passion
> towards us, it certainly doesn't endear new users to Zope. New users are
> the only way Zope Corp is going to make more money, unless of course
> zope.org is just for us non-revenue generating little fish, an inconvenience
> associated with having Open Source software, not something that promotes
> and supports the non-paying community.
> 
> Noone wants a standardised User Management API more than me. I *want* to
> have confidence that someone can replace any User Folder with XUF, and it
> will just work. So when I come across something that says there is a
> New User Management API, I get excited. I prepare to roll up my sleeves and
> make the necessary changes to make software I contributed to the community
> continue to work. I think we all know by now my opinion on what I found,
> the harshness of the expression of that opinion is directly related to
> the way that these days Zope Corp seems to be an Ivory Tower and the way
> they seem to treat the community at large.
> 
> There are approximately 450 products released by just over 200 people on
> Zope.org. There are approximately 1000 'entities' subscribed to this list
> (more to the main list), I represent 0.1% of this community, but, am
> responsible (but, not soley) for 3% of the total product space available.
> 
> If people want to form an opinion of me based on one email, that's your
> right. You don't have the right to tell me, that *I* don't have the right
> to say the things I'm saying. I have earned the right to make these comments,
> I have contributed time, effort, and code, and I put my money where my
> mouth is. I'm not some backseat political observer, I am in the trenches
> I deal with the disaffected, the confused, and the generally pissed off
> every day. In my efforts, I try to help to make Zope a better product.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to find a more stalwart supporter of Zope than me.
> This doesn't mean that I have to think that everything that leaves the
> holy temple of Zope Corp is the panacea of web development. My opinions
> might be wrong, but, they're not wrong simply because something was released
> by Zope Corp, or written by some person you have attached some god like
> status to.
> 
> I will continue to do my thing, but, the way Zope Corp deals with us,
> the little fish had better change, or there's not going to be much of a
> community left. Those of you who subscribe to zope-dev who think that your
> time is too valuable to be spent helping others, well, words fail me.
> 
> --
> Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet|                      | Andrew Milton
> The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd          |                      |
> ACN: 082 081 472 ABN: 83 082 081 472 |  M:+61 416 022 411   | Carpe Daemon
> PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068    |akm@theinternet.com.au|
> 
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