[Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Two visions

[Martijn Faassen]

Jim Fulton wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-02-28 at 17:29 +0100, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
>>Jim Fulton wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>I see Zope 5 being a combination of Zope 2 and Zope 3, keeping
>>>the best of both.  
>>
>>I think we already have Zope 5, and it's called Zope 2.9.
>>
>>Perhaps I'm wrong. If so, how does Zope 5 differ from Zope 2.9?
>  
> Are you kidding?

No, I'm not kidding. Zope 2.9 is the closest thing to Zope 5 that we 
have today, that people can work with. Zope 2.10 will hopefully be 
closer too, and so on.

> Zope 5 will be backward compatible with Zope 2 and Zope 3.  It will
> allow configurations that look a lot like Zope 3.

Sounds like the original vision of Zope 3 without the X. I thought we 
never got around to developing this stuff the last time. What changed?

> It will have the best of both systems, and improvements to both.

Zope 2.9 has a lot of two systems. It doesn't have improvements to both, 
as we see that's clearly the mandate of the Zope 3 project, not of the 
Zope 2 or Five projects. We improve Zope 2 by taking bits of Zope 3. 
Mixing these things up into a Zope 5 puddle risks mixing it all up a lot.

> It is where we put all of out app-server efforts.  Among other
> things, it will have Zope 3's publisher and security model.
> 
> It will provide support for non-developers much the way Zope 2
> does now, but with better solutions that ZClasses.
> 
> And, it will allow us to cleanly separate the efforts on an 
> application server, from out work on widely usable components.

When do you think all this work will be finished? Who will work on it?

What do we do in the mean time? What do we tell people?

Do you really feel comfortable promising all that?

How are we not on the course to reaching this featureset, eventually, 
anyway?

I don't see how *saying* what Zope 5 will contain will make it *exist* 
any time sooner. These sound like useful evolution proposals for Zope 2 
and Zope 3 to me...

The current story of Zope 2, Five and Zope 3 gets us in the right 
direction (Zope 5, if you want to call it that, though I would 
definitely want to introduce yet another name in the mix), step by step. 
We don't promise too much to people. We don't raise the wrong 
expecations anymore. Everyone in the community is on board.

We are already doing the work that's required to reach the ideal of 
"Zope 5". You could rename Zope 2.10 to Zope 5.0, but I don't see what 
good that would do except to confuse people. It won't contain the 
features you list unless someone actually does all that work. The 
alternative is to put Zope 5 in the nebulous future when all the work 
you list is done, and it'll be just like our mythical "Zope 3 without 
the X" then - confusing people and raising the wrong expectations.

Regards,

Martijn