[Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Two visions

[Martijn Faassen]

Jim Fulton wrote:
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
[snip]
>> Sounds like the original vision of Zope 3 without the X. I thought we 
>> never got around to developing this stuff the last time.
> 
> Actually, no.  We originally said that we would provide a transition
> path.  I said over and over that this was *not* going to be backward
> compatibility.  I guess this was too complex a message.  I think your
> post proves that it was.

I know exactly what was said, and we, the Zope community, said it wrong, 
including the backwards compatibility bit. I quote the release notes for 
Zope X3.0:

"The "X" in the name stands for "experimental", since this release does 
not try to provide any backward-compatibility to Zope 2."

What do you think that implied? Maybe you didn't say backwards 
compatibility, but our release notes certainly said something about this.

This message wasn't new:

"""
1b. "Zope 3X" is the preliminary version of Zope 3. It is built from the
ground up, paying attention to the lessons learned from Zope 2 and CMF.
It is not a product but intended to let developers get familiar with the
new architecture early.

1c. "Zope 3" is the mainline release intended for production use and
including backwards compatibility to Zope 2.
"""

It was here:

http://cvs.zope.org/Zope3/doc/security/background.rst?rev=1.3

I had a lot more to say in this posting which I recommend you read:

http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2006-February/017939.html

[snip snip]
>> I don't see how *saying* what Zope 5 will contain will make it *exist* 
>> any time sooner.
>  
> You seem to be arguing against a roadmap, which is puzzling.

> Obviously, predictions of the future are imperfect.

I'm not arguing against a vision. I'm worried about marketing and what 
we will be implicitly implying. I want to be very careful about roadmaps 
as we can't guarantee they will happen, and broken promises in this will 
be worse than no promises at all.

I think, for now, our vision should be sketched with what we have right 
now (Zope 2 and Zope 3) and where we think they are going. Talk about it 
names we already know, or if we really make new things, new names that 
are not Zope for the time being.

[snip]
>> The current story of Zope 2, Five and Zope 3 gets us in the right 
>> direction (Zope 5, if you want to call it that, though I would 
>> definitely want to introduce yet another name in the mix), step by 
>> step. We don't promise too much to people. We don't raise the wrong 
>> expecations anymore.
> 
> What expectations did we raise?

See my referenced mail:

http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2006-February/017939.html

> AFAIK, the official story is that Zope 3 will eventually replace
> Zope 2 and that Zope 2 will be augmented with Zope 3 technology
> to make the transition easier. I don't think there are many people,
> if any, really working on making Zope 3 a credible replacement for
> Zope 2.  There are people working on making it into something
> wonderful, but not a replacement for Zope 2.  Do you agree that
> this is the current story?  If not, and if *we* cannot agree on
> what the current story is, think how confused everyone else must
> be.

I think that is indeed the current story. It's not complete:

Zope 3 technology is replacing Zope 2 today in that I can write a Zope 
3-like application in Zope 2. In that sense, Zope 2.9 *is* the Zope 3 
without X. Zope 3 technology is not only in Zope 2 for the transition, 
but also because it's cool stuff we can actually use profitably now, not 
only because we might be able to transition to Zope 3 more easily in 
some future.

I think part of this story is that the Zope 2 people will work on Zope 
3-based technology to replace bits of Zope 2 step by step, bit by bit. I 
believe this is happening in the context of Five, the Zope 2 core (the 
event system), and the CMF. I think part of this story is also that Zope 
2 is safe and is going to be around for a loooong time.

Emphasizing these bits of the story would be good, and I think we agree 
on that. We need to be careful though we also are seen to stay the 
course: introducing new version numbers and names of the mix is I think 
right now the wrong action to take.

[snip]
>  > It won't contain the
> 
>> features you list unless someone actually does all that work.
> 
> 
> That's right.  Someone needs to do the work.  Similarly, Zope 3
> won't be a replacement for Zope 2 unless someone does the work.
> What's your point? That we shouldn't plan?  That we shouldn't
> have a common vision for where we're going, or communicate that
> vision?

These are rhetorical questions...

My point is:

Have a vision, but plan step by step. Don't promote the presumed 
endpoint of the steps too much yet. Evolve the message step by step too. 
Change the message slowly, not all at once, to avoid creating confusion 
and unrest. Don't change the message before we're ready. Introducing a 
new message always carries a strong risk of being misunderstood.

>> The alternative is to put Zope 5 in the nebulous future when all the work 
>> you list is done, and it'll be just like our mythical "Zope 3 without 
>> the X" then - confusing people and raising the wrong expectations.
> 
> 
> The Zope 3 that provides support for transitioning from Zope 2
> is "mythical" in the sense that it doesn't exist.  It is something
> that we've been working on.  Are you going to call anything that
> doesn't exist "mythical"?   I don't see how that is useful or productive.

I call vaporware on the promise we made for years on that, sure. I worry 
about Zope 5 being vaporware too. We're not close enough yet.

> As a community, I think we need a common vision of what we're working
> toward.  It appears that we have that today.

Sure. I think this thread made this explicit. Let's not stir the pot and 
just work on this for a few Zope 2 and Zope 3 releases more. Maybe the 
pot's ready for stirring after then.

Regards,

Martijn