[Zope-dev] how to help Martijn (how can we have better discussions?)

[Martijn Faassen]

Martijn Faassen wrote:
[snip]
> So how can we have better discussions?
> 
> We can have better discussions by helping me.
> 
> How can you help me? Of course it helps if you agree with me. I realize 
> that's frequently infeasible, but I certainly wouldn't mind. :)
> 
> If you disagree with me, I'd like you to try to understand my concerns 
> as much as you possibly can. In addition, try acknowledge my concerns as 
> much as you possibly can without feeling you're lying. This works beter 
> than just rejecting them.

Chris McDonough pointed out to me that I didn't help in that discussion 
by not making my own individual concerns clear. I contributed to the 
problem by talking about abstract responsibilities instead of focusing 
on concrete needs of myself and people I know about.

So: I actually *need* the zope.app information (and a well-tested 
zope.app) in transitioning applications (in Zope 3 or Grok) I work on 
the ZTK. As a Grok developer I also need that info to help transition 
Grok and Grok users to the ZTK. This way we can port Grok and our 
applications to ZTK and zope.app.* first, and then when the tests run, 
slowly change the imports to strip away zope.app.* dependencies. Like 
what we did with the ZTK itself, in fact.

I'd like to share the burden of maintaining zope.app* with others. I 
hope those of you who want to improve the ZTK also will help in making 
sure zope.app.* doesn't suddenly break.

I wasn't very successful in explaining all that before, so perhaps it's 
clearer in the personal.

Regards,

Martijn