[ZWeb] Newbie thoughts on zope.org re-org

Michael Twomey michael.twomey@sun.com
06 Dec 2001 18:22:59 +0000


Thanks for the good reply.

Just to summarise

1. Are we agreed for the need for Out of the box solutions? I think
providing a few basic boxed sites will really help draw people into
Zope. I think the aim here should be to pick a couple of use cases,
knock together a sample boxed site and have it on zope.org as reference
designs. I suggest a couple of simple site types: a slashdot.org style
news site (squishdot?), a sourceforge style project management site and
a weblog. Frequently people are drawn to an environment because of the
existing solutions before they look at creating their own. I'll happily
start working on sample use cases for these if you want. Heck, if my
zope abilities improve and time allows I can start putting one together.

2. Improving product tracking seems to be dealt with fine elsewhere in
this thread.



A couple more thoughts on things that can be done straight away:

* Maybe zope.org's front page should be simplified. The first thing a
new user should be drawn to is downloading and installing zope. Odds are
if you are at zope.org you already have a vague idea of what zope is and
you want to try it out.

* I'm really surprised there isn't a "Recent changes" set of boxes based
on simple metadata queries (or am I thinking of CMF?) on the zope front
page so people can see recent product changes and recent debates for
example.



And finally a couple of thoughts on possible new zope.org features:

* a simple reminder system. A slight variant on the notifications
previously discussed but sometimes I would really like to attach a
"remind me to check this page again when condition x occurs" to my
documents. That way I can see what I need to update when, say, a year
passes or a new rev of a product is released.

* Some kind of "archive this set of pages" feature so old pages/products
can be retired gracefully but still kept around for historical purposes.
I suppose this could be tied into future versioning features of Zope (to
create a CVS style attic).

cheers,
	mick

On Wed, 2001-12-05 at 17:58, alan runyan wrote:
> > * I feel there is a very slight bias in Zope documentation to talk about
> > how to code and design you own products rather than how to create a
> > typical usable site by plugging together whats there.
> 
> ZOPE in its current incarnation is really a development
> toolkit/framework/whatever you want to call it.  You really have to kinda
> understand Object Oriented programming and python to 'get' ZOPE.  You can
> get fairly far with mix and match of Products.  The prob is most Products
> dont co-operate (being addressed by new architecture in Zope 3) without lots
> of coding.
> 
> > By this I mean there is a tendancy to leap straight into developing Zope
> > objects and code rather than showing a newbie how to quickly plug
> > together a usable site. I know this might sound very trivial to the Zope
> > hardcore but to someone who has never seen Zope before just seeing how a
> > simple site can be put together using already existing products would be
> > really useful and help hook people in.
> 
> this is what I would consider Product integration.  this is something I have
> always wanted.  well, my focus would most likely be on external integration.
> how to get ZOPE speaking to a MessageQueue, integrating it with SiteMinder.
> External 'integration' stories.  but you have just as valid point - how to
> take Product A + Product B + Customization = Cool website.  I dont see this
> really happening unless some ZOPE Newbies really take initiative and produce
> documentation.
> 
> > Maybe this is due to a lack of "out of the box site" type products but
> > starting with Zope I had to fight the feeling that I had to learn how to
> > program/design with DTML and ZClasses just to put together a simple
> > site. You don't want to do that when you are starting, just seeing the
> > zope management interface for the first time can be overwhelming.
> 
> There is a lack of OOTB sites.  This could probably be solved with a
> OOTB-Zope distribution.  that came stock w/ RDBM adapters, pre-installed
> Products, and maybe a pre-populated ZODB.
> 
> > Granted the true power of Zope is as a development environment but you
> > want to see a good example of what can be achived by plugging bits
> > together to get a feel for Zope. I feel by showing this more people can
> > be drawn into using Zope.
> 
> 
> > * Zope.org is a mess. Sorry but it is :). It took me a couple of weeks
> > to find out the existence of CMF. For the beginner a really clear,
> > simple roadmap of how to learn/start with Zope would be really useful. A
> > single page which listed all the relevant documents/products in order
> > would be really great. Sort of a "go here to install zope", "go here to
> > get cmf, a really useful product" type document would be great.
> 
> zope.org has aged but not really evolved.  there are no evolved mechanisms
> to help people.  this is mainly because tehre is 1 entity controlling the
> website.  This list, I believe is trying to work through that issue.
> 
> > * I'm still having problems finding Products/howtos. They are presented
> > as far too long a list and aren't easily searchable. Its a bit
> > frustrating to search for a product, download it, try it out for a
> > while, run into a problem, search the lists and find that the product
> > has been replaced by something else (ok extreme example).
> 
> not really an extreme example.  but I believe having some sort of packaging
> system could help out.  we should come up with a Zope OOTB Certified label
> that can be put on Products that can be installed w/o programming
> intervention.  I have always been a fan of 'certifying' products.
> Especially when it comes to RDBMS -- which Postgres Adapter should I use?
> This could also lead to people being more organized on, 'things to do to
> make this product OOTB certified'  .... just throwing out ideas
> 
> > * There are too many wikis. I feel this is a symptom of the layout
> > problems in zope.org that people find it easier to start a new wiki. By
> > having so many wikis you start to lose some of the advantages of a wiki
> > and increase site clutter.
> 
> wiki's have no structure.  lets just say a wiki is good to 'braindump' and
> collaborate on ideas.  well.. there still is no mechanism inside of wiki to
> leverage existing text into the next revision of your document.  Have you
> seen Backtalk?  something that I dont think exists on zope.org but exists on
> sourceforge (this should probably be a warning sign that products are not
> available on zope.org but are available on srcforge)
> .
> > By the way I am prepared to put work into Zope.org but it will probably
> > be only a couple of hours a week depending on my commitments. I'm got
> > reasonable experience in python, xml-rpc and xml as well a bit of web
> > design experience. Since I've never done a major project in zope don't
> > worry about getting the newbie perspective from me :)
> 
> sign up on seb's wiki.  and subscribe to the list.  I'm sure there will be a
> call to arms soon.
> 
> thanks mick
> ~runyaga
> 
> 
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-- 
Michael Twomey
These opinions are my own and do not represent Sun unless otherwise
stated.
Sun Microsystems, Dublin, 8199164, x19164
"Fly my little Makefiles! Fly!"