[Zope] Giving up in frustration

Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:53:08 -0400

Hi all,

I'm now less than 3 weeks from retirement at a "ripe ol' 53" :^)    One
on my planned projects is to create a new paradigm in a badly served
vertical business space.  I've been using Python for ~6 months, though
I've had the GvR and ML books for over 2 years.  In the early Python
days, I saw a lot of potential. 

After only a couple of days, I see *tremendous* potential for Zope...  

BUT...  BTW, "but" is the "great _eraser_"...  you can hear all sorts of
great comments, be ready to close a sale, finish convincing someone...
UNTIL the "BUT"...  then everything that came before is now unimportant
and one must scramble to "solve" the 'but's...  :^)

[You may have to lobotomize your Zope knowledge to understand where I'm
at...]

For me, all of the above is unimportant because after spending the w/e
reading, trying to follow the JobBoard example, etc.  I still feel like
I'm looking into a glass house where I can see lots of great stuff; BUT,
I still can't find the front door...  could be it's too transparent, or
I haven't found the "magic" (oft used word in docs) incantation... 
maybe my totally ignoring dungeon games was a bad idea.

The words from Brad which really struck a chord in me as a Zope newbie
are:

>I'm experienced, quick-witted, hard-working, dogged and persistent.  I read 
>all the available documentation until my eyes bled.  I read thousands of 
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the letters in the email forum.

Wow!  Can I ever relate to this (except: hundreds vs thousands -- just
started).  Not to mention that people described this way usually use
mailing lists as a _last_ resort; and in some cases, are never heard
from.

I see too much potential here to give up...  my critique of the docs can
be summed up this way:  much of what I've read so far appears to be
marketing/sales oriented.  I'm tired (sic) of reading how good Zope is;
I came to that conclusion after reading the first overview.  Every time
I read a doc, if it's salesy, I start skimming ever faster.  Sadly, I
may be missing the answer as a result; could it be that Zope might be
better documented with LESS?  

I really wish I could help directly; but I have several issues to
overcome first...

I tried doing the JobBoard example because it seemed to have similar
attributes to what I want to do.  Result: failed.  Why?  Don't know
yet.  This raises some questions that I've not seen answered (yet):
  - root == blank (just found it in FAQ)
  - are docs always present/served?
  - can I remove docs, or move them aside (as a product)?
  - the first place I see an "Add" button is in
<root>/ControlPanel/Products; if I add my project here, I get:
    Products
      ExternalMethod 
      MIMETools 
      MailHost 
      MyProject  <===
      OFSP 
      ZCatalog 
      ZGadflyDA 
      ZSQLMethods 
    MailHost is the only clue that this might be the correct placement;
but it seems to me that many "products" might be better grouped under
"Tools" or somesuch if so.  At one point, I wondered if I should install
Zope in <somepath>/MyProject to avoid [via deletion] having the Zope
docs served to the users of MyProject; 

You might find these simple, even silly, questions; but for whatever
reason, the present docs fail to answer the most basic beginner
questions which would probably only rise to the "doh!" level.  The
"giant leap" for me is stumped by the sea of words which prevent my
"small step".

[Weird:  I just wrote the above and Conan O'Brien has a comedic version
of the lunar landing complete with video of Armstrong and crew. :-]

Re the "Use The Source, Luke" comments:  I never had to read a single
line of Python source to understand it.  The docs (incl. 2 books) were
quite terse in the getting started area; but script editing was the base
requirement.  The equivalent base requirement in Zope is akin to
learning magic; the docs say so...  

Suggestion:  (Sorry if this has already been proposed) don't stop
development, or releases, etc.  From what I can see, it should be fairly
simple to create [with Zope -- doh! :-] a documentation structure and a
mechanism to allow individuals to add to the docs.  I still haven't
found how to do it; but the current docs suggest that Versioning could
also be useful here...   Such a system would allow this newbie to pitch
in [after finding the glass door :-].

Sigh...  this raises the question:  does versioning support
check-out|-in?  As in several versions working on the same elements...

Bottom line:  a lot less "Zope can..." marketing in the docs. I'm
already sold; I'm in there for *answers*.

Thanks for reading this far.  Hard to focus...  sleepy.  |-|

badly-wanting-the-doh!-factor-to-kick-in-ly yours,
Pierre "beginner wannabe Zope-dope"

Paul Everitt wrote:
> 
> Joe wrote:
> > I believe the zope community is astoundingly good at
> > answering questions
> > intelligently, just bunches of questions can go unanswered and there
> > doesn't seem to be a faq good enough to eliminate the need for basic
> > questions.  Perhaps if we can translate some of the expounded list
> > knowledge into faq material, zope startup will be all that
> > much easier.
> 
> This is one of the greatest tragedies of all.  Fantastic amounts of
> wisdom float by on the list every day and get lost.
> 
> I suggest that this discussion is better served on the ZDP list
> (zdp@zope.org).
> 
> --Paul
> 
> Paul Everitt       Digital Creations
> paul@digicool.com  540.371.6909
> -----------------------------------------
> The Open Source Zope application server
> http://www.zope.org/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist  -  Zope@zope.org
> http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> 
> (To receive general Zope announcements, see:
> http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> 
> For developer-specific issues, zope-dev@zope.org -
> http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )