[Zope] Re: reality check - The REAL issue

[Craig P Avnit]

On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, you wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Craig P Avnit <craig@londonplaza.co.uk>
> To: <zope@zope.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 4:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: reality check - The REAL issue
> 
> 
> > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, you wrote:
> > > Everyone is talking about the difficulty in using Zope and how good Docs
> > > would help.  I believe, in part, documentation is just masking part of
> > > the problem.  Zope is way-to-difficult to use.  If you're a programmer,
> > > you can trudge through and figure out how Zope works.  But I'm not a
> > > programmer.
> > I have yet to see any non programmer deploy a cold fusion, vignette, or
> any
> > other application server solution.  Zope is not nearly as difficult to
> > implement as a java servlet based solution.
> >
> > You will always lose functionality when implementing ease of use in a
> > development environment.
> 
> Isn't that the definition of a 'bad' development enviroment.
> 

Are you trying to tell me that Cold Fusion, ASP and Websphere are good because
they are easy to use.  The problem with developers on those platforms and most
windows developers, are that they code the most horrificaly bloated application
known to man.

Cold Fusion doesn't come close to Zope and Python in functionality and rapid
development.  

 > >
> > >  I don't know what's going on at the code-level, and
> > > frankly, I don't want to have to know.  If Zope is to truly adopt a wide
> > > user base, it's got to be easy enough that the average user and install
> > > and deploy Zope.  Right now, it's just to complicated for me use.  I've
> > > got a business to run, I don't have time to mess around with the
> > > particulars.
> > >
> >
> > That is why there are people out there like the fine folks at DC, who can
> > concentrate on supplying you with the functionality you need to allow you
> to
> > concentrate on your business.
> 
> I thought the whole idea behind open-source was that there is
> a critical mass of users that has to be reached for the flow on
> benefits. Those benefits won't arise if the open-source application
> isn't competitive, it won't be competitive if it isn't easy to use and
> it certainly won't get a critical mass if there is an understanding
> that 'best' practice, performance and use are not the watch words.
> 


I agree, but the point a click mentality doesn't help either.  You don't use
linux because you are in a desktop environment, if windows is so good show me
an ISP that trusts there operations to it, I don't. Unix and linux strengths
lie in the server arena at the moment.  I run a linux box at home, full printer
access and all the Destop applications I need. I don't have 5 % of the problems
the average window user has. 



> One reason I haven't move to linux is that it is still not as easy to
> use as windows, I just don't want to learn the geekisms. Now to
> add positively to this to debate, what Zope really needs is a glossary
> of terms, then a one page overview of all components that has
> been 'tested' against a panel of average windows users (the
> industrial standard), if they can understand it anyone that
> matters can. ;-).
> 

Windows are the industry standard for home PC's and desktop, not mission
critical high end apps, and distributed computing. Unix is the standard here.

I agree that zope does need to be easier to use, and the docs can be improved,
but I cannot agree with wanting to aspire to windows mediocrity, or heaven
forbid that windows users are the only ones who matter.  Most organisations run
in spite of windows not because of it.

> 
> Could anyone point me to a one-page description of
> a product, where it resides, what it can do for me and
> how it interrelates with the other Zope components.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > > Just a thought,
> > >
> > > Brian
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > --
> > Craig P Avnit
> > Director
> > London Plaza Ltd
> > Tel: +44 (0)7000 64-5768
> > Fax: +44 (0)7000 64-5769
> > http://www.londonplaza.co.uk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Zope maillist  -  Zope@zope.org
> > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> >           No cross posts or HTML encoding!
> > (Related lists -
> >  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> >  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
> >
-- 
Craig P Avnit
Director
London Plaza Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7000 64-5768
Fax: +44 (0)7000 64-5769
http://www.londonplaza.co.uk