[Zope] reality check

[Hannu Krosing]

Jonothan Farr wrote:
> 
> > Ouch.  That hurts.
> >
> > Where was this taken from?
> 
> It would be pretty difficult to explain the purpose of the mailing list I took
> that message from. Suffice it to say that most of the members are computer
> professionals.

Salesmen ? ;)

> I disagree that the person who posted it has, "very little
> computer experience."

But has this "computer professional" any database (specifically SQL)
experience?

Were his problems with _using_ zope to do an INSERT INTO or where they in
getting 
the Oracle DA to work (eiher for a "relatively immature" or some "more mature" 
release of Oracle).

Or was he incapable of determining which was the case - perhaps trying to
insert 
into Oracle using the built-in Gadfly adapter ?

From your description it seems to be not the quality of docs (which do need 
improving), but something more fundamental, like reading the wrong docs, 
knowing nothing of databases or just not trying and lying to you that he did.

> Perhaps not much experience working with relatively
> immature open source software projects. I don't think they understood what an
> important resource the community is for finding information.

Or if he abhors community, I've heard that DC has also for-pay courses.

> My reason for posting this is what I said in the subject, a reality check. I
> love the enthusiasm that the Zope community has in general. But I think that
> the Zope community is largely made up of individuals who already really love
> Zope.

Yep. Most who can't grasp even the most simplest things about zope after a few 
weeks _dedicated_ effort and are too shy to ask do leave :)

> I wanted to present the viewpoint of someone who has no bias for or
> against Python or Zope. I wanted to present an evaluation solely on the merits
> of whether it could get their job done. I wanted to point out what those people
> say Zope needs to have in order to win them over.

Maybe we need some meta-meta document about where to find what (btw, Zope is
HUGE,
they don't speak about zen of zope for nothing, it has mirrors within mirrors 
within mirrors ;) 

> If you imply that they are not experienced enough or intelligent enough or
> open-minded enough to use Zope then you are missing the point.
> Zope is a tool for web programmers, not Python programmers. It has
> to be useful to them if it is going to be successful.

You can do quite a lot of web-databse programming without writing a single
line
of Python, but you need to have two things :

1) a working Databse Adapter (I've never set up Oracle DA for Zope, but I
remember 
from my Oracle days that setting up Oracle client could be quite an ordeal)

2) knowledge (or docs) of SQL. Most of Zope docs on DAs seem to imply that
people 
using them know SQL or can guess the meaning of INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE and
SELECT 
from examples.

--------------
Hannu