[Zope] <% ... %> ?

[Alex.Thomas@dresdnerkb.com]

I reckon this is a bit like the issues that will crop up when XML RPC gets
established: soon people will want to put multiple calls in one message,
then add in some conditional error handling etc. and before you know it XML
will become a complete programming language. For this reason, I think that
any XML rendition of logic should correspond to the serialization of
statement objects (closures?) in a well-defined programming language, such
as, er...., well, why don't we suggest one? I think this is the sort of
thing that http://www.nombas.com are doing with their distributed
Javascript, but there are several similar initiatives out there.

cheers
Alex



-----Original Message-----
From: Jules Allen [mailto:zope@jules.com]
Sent: 15 June 1999 15:29
To: Paul Everitt
Cc: Jim Fulton; zope@zope.org
Subject: Re: [Zope] <% ... %> ?


At 08:36 AM 6/15/99 -0400, Paul Everitt wrote:
>> What makes it hideous?  Is it the noice characters? (!--#)
>> Is it the number of shift characters?  Is it the fact that
>> DTML don't look like other tags?  Is it the tag in an attribute
>> problem mentioned above?
>
>I'd say, in order:
>
>1) It doesn't look like the competition.  (which is largely <% or
>inventing their own tags).
>
>2) Excessive noise.

I'd swap those two around. Yes, PHP and ASP are similar but Cold Fusion is
more like The Zope Way. I used CF before I used ASP, as Allaire obviously
got there first, and my gut reaction to the <% %> delimiters after doing a
couple of years of CF was "thank the Maker!" <cfThis> ... </cfThis> and
<cfThat> ... </cfThat> is cumbersome to type, especially in the
pre-HomeSite days.

CF works exceptionally well for less technical end users as it's all a
bunch of widgets. Learn or look up the syntax and Bob's your uncle: You're
pulling stuff from databases and sending confirmation mails like a champion.

Paul, you mentioned that the chasm between DTML and external methods is
currently too great. I haven't had a chance to delve into externals yet but
maybe this idea of that DTML is for Power Users is valid. I hate to suggest
a Wizard but maybe some kind of DTML builder is necessary for those that
need training wheels?

I've already got a few test Zope/HomeSite definitions working. Maybe I'll
get them finished up this weekend or next. Anybody know a good way to get
permanent 4 day weekends? :-)

>3) When something interesting requires the expr machinery, you can only
>do one expression per line.  (Note that this complaint isn't slated to
>be solved by a syntax change in DTML, just that it is a common
>complaint).

I do understand your previous statement about separation of 'reporting' and
'logic' and I think it's a good one. However, from a user perspective, I
only know how to clumsily use a hammer (DTML) right now so everything looks
like a nail to me. Separation of Church and State is a lofty goal and both
bleed into each other's turf.

>[syntax/tool support observations snipped]
>
>Here's a chance for all of you folks out there with expertise in HTML
>tools (Dreamweaver, FrontPage, Cyberstudio, Alpha, Emacs, etc.) to weigh
>in.

As I said, I've got sample HomeSite definitions on the go but I'd really
like to get my head around doing a (vi|vim) definition style as it's a
better editor for my needs. I've never done one but I'm sure it can't be
that hard. Of course Emacs is a nice operating system but I prefer Linux at
home so I can't comment on that ;-)

>> > 2) Becoming well-formed means the authors can be given hints before
>> > saving changes,
>> 
>> Good point.

Erm, #var seems kind of fluid and only a very, very smart editor would be
able to offer hints effectively.

>Let's say you rename a document.  Nearly all the competition will update
>all the references to the document.

...and links, etc...

I'd also like to say how refreshing and intelligent the comments from
everybody are. So far I can't find one email where anybody's been called an
a**hole. ;-)

ZINU-(Zope-is-Not-USENET)-ly-yrs, baby!
Jules

--
"There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
 Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch."
  -- Tim <0.8 wink> Peters

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