[Zope] Off topic - RE: [Zope] Allaire Spectra

[chas]

At 04:37 AM 9/28/99 +0200, Alexander Staubo wrote:

>ColdFusion EAS is in turn pretty expensive. (Although not expensive in
>enterprise terms. Just so expensive that somebody can't "install and
>play around with it".) 

Demo is free to download and it's so easy to get up and running
that within 2 weeks you'll know whether CF is for you. Well, maybe
not you personally since you're a python fiend, but Joe Shmoe in 
general.

>In other words, everything Zope isn't and will
>never be.

Come now, we can't ignore the similarities between the 2 products.
middleware <g>, caching, app server.  Spectra builds on top of that
in the same way our Zope 'products' build ontop of Zope.

The differences lie in :
a) how it's marketed (which is what you describe above)
b) how it's implemented. ie. technology.


>Good news, I think. They're not learning.

On the contrary, I believe that there is a great deal that we
could learn from CF. I still remember the first time I downloaded
CF and had built my own custom apps within an evening - not just 
prepackaged apps (like Zope's "products" or just using the  web
interface) but my own stuff. 
ie. they had me writing code immediately. 
I am, to paraphrase snowcrash 'as slow as a mammal can be and still
have respiratory functions', so this was no mean feat.

Their packaging is superb. This *is* important though we (when
wearing our 'techie' hats) would like to think it isn't. I don't 
refer to the pretty box that software arrives in, I refer to the 
completeness of the documentation, the website, the very simple 
tutorials that get people up and running in no time at all. They 
understand their target audience well ... and the docs are 
written such that even a total mong would understand. Yes, I 
speak from experience in the department ;)

3 months ago I had to make a decision for scaling my websites in the 
long term. Resons for choosing Cold Fusion (and perhaps Spectra) :
a) Biggie : there are many, many developers I can get hold of with
   CF experience.
b) I knew that it would be easy to train new staff in CF. We'd done
   it before and it didn't take long at all.

Reasons for not choosing Spectra / Cold Fusion.
a) I didn't (and don't) have US$10,000 lying around - that was about the 
   cost of Spectra + Application server was going to cost.
b) I wasn't on the beta list and couldn't play with it yet. 
c) I like Python. I'd much rather be using Python to extend a product
   than any other language.  I was also simply bored of CF - it's not
   very thrilling.
d) Cross platform. (and hence scalability)
e) I felt that the "content objects" that Spectra was boasting were
   nothing more than 'content modules' we've probably all created in one
   language or another. And in fact, Zope has ZClasses. I don't like
   paying for stuff I've already made.

3 months later and I'm glad I stuck with Zope though it hasn't been 
an easy road. However, I've personally seen several people I know
fall by the wayside and simply throw their hands up in the air in
frustration. Are we even trying to appeal to the same audience as 
Allaire ? (which goes back to the difference/similarity in the way
zope and spectra are marketed)  Would we like to have tens of 
thousands of developers using Zope ? I think so. 

This isn't meant as a flame or bait and the list is busy enough as it
is so pls send abuse directly to me. 

Just giving credit where it's due.

cheers,

chas