[Zope] comment on posting behavior

[Guy N. Hurst]

J C Lawrence wrote:
> ...
> 
> I would much rather have "likely to be correct" answers posted to
> the list than no answers posted at all.  If some level of confusion
> is the result of that, so be it.  I'm sure the confused (of which
> I'm often one) can learn to ignore the "I haven't tested this" posts
> if they really need to.
> 

This is only to underscore the fact that Zope is not ready for prime
time.
It goes beyond just posting untested results. 

Something like Perl or PHP would have definitive, known answers for most
all issues. Resident experts are scattered everywhere. It is like taking
your broken-down vehicle to a certified mechanic, and getting it fixed.

MY OPINION
The problem with Zope is, hardly anyone seems to know what is really 
going on under the hood (but hey, you're not supposed to need to know), 
and it is too often that it is left to anyone's guess why something 
doesn't work - or even why it in fact does work a certain way. No one is 
certified, and no one claims to be, either. It is like the wild west, 
too, because no one's work is sheriffed in a manner to maintain order.  
And there are plenty of enthusiasts setting up their homestead, willing 
to endure these hardships. (Can be pretty exciting, you know).

I think only a hobbyist can maintain the excitement of enduring all the
pitfalls, traps, and rewarding features that can be discovered. It is 
really like an adventure -- if you have the time and desire.

But I am not a hobbyist, and to tell you the truth, I am just plain 
fed up. I am being sold a pan and a shovel while hearing claims of gold.
Sure, there is gold - but no one is going to give it to you.
**But the hype is that it IS being given to you.**
That would only apply if you needed some simple things.
Some things that fit the mold of what Zope can readily offer.
Whoever you may be, I insist you stop hyping Zope to the point of
making false and misleading claims, even if only implicitly.

It goes from being simple-and-easy, to
do-it-yourself-you're-on-your-own.
It goes from being a well-thought-out system, to guess-the-syntax-today.
It goes from being cross-platform-support to
oh-we-don't-actually-use-IIS.
It goes from having community-contributed-solutions to 
community-spread-bugs.
It goes from open-source application server to
oh-you-have-to-pay-for-THAT.
It goes from you-don't-need-to-know-python to
you-should-really-know-python.
It goes from you-can-always-use-external-methods to 
you-shouldn't-use-external-methods.
It goes from we're-ready-now to we're-working-on-it.
It goes from reduced-code-management to
increased-server-resources-management.
..etc!

I am tired of the enthusiasm now, because on closer inspection, I have
found plainly false and misleading claims. Even by well-meaning people.
And it has to do with ignorance of how Zope actually works. But 
supposedly you don't need to know! I say baloney.

All the enthusiastic things I have come across only really apply to a 
subset of the features I would actually need to implement, anyway.

Sure, there are things to be excited about. But just because Zope 
exceeds by 1000% the capabilities of some commercial applications in a 
few areas, does not mean it does so in the other areas businesses rely
on!!

Besides the baloney, are the half-baked answers given as bread to eat.

Instead of seeing well-measured, sensible analyses of this, I see
people saying "so-and-so survived the slashdot effect, so it must be 
good", "haven't heard of any problems with high-traffic sites", 
"shouldn't have any problems", "FAST CGI is the way to go", etc.,
whereas Perens' site had almost no graphics, DC really DOES know of a
high-traffic site having problems, the list is FULL of reported
problems, and FAST CGI isn't supported on NT for free.

And I could spend hours giving many more examples.

I AM FED UP.

And I am not the only one, either.

And the few experts who are contributing their knowledge to the list
are not making up for it all.

There really is misinformation about the virtues of Zope abounding.
Unfortunately, it is just misinformation. It really cannot do as many
things as are claimed/suggested/hinted/implied.
Some of the posts people make to help others are based on this 
misinformation.

Zope is supposed to be easy and do all the work for me, so I can just
drop in pre-made products/modules/classes or whatever.
You know, assemble-your-own-site.
Well, you really can't do that! Not easily. Not using all the 
capabilities I was hoping. Not in a reasonable amount of time.

Yes, this is my opinion, but it is based on my experience.

Reusability in Zope turns out, in many cases, to be no easier - and in 
fact, harder - than reusing code in Perl, PHP, or other languages where
the system is being made by an expert in his field.
It seems that, when there are problems in Zope, expertise is still
required. But that seems to defeat the point of why Zope is being
exalted.
Zope is no better than any other system requiring an expert.
Actually, it's worse. Zope framework seems too complex and changable to 
have any sort of resident expert to begin with. You'd have to know
all the Products, etc., which are not held to any sort of standard.
I may as well develop my own system than assemble parts of things with
unknown, unpredictable surprises in store.

Why am I saying this? To counter those with unbounded/misguided 
enthusiasm for something which is not worthy of it. And maybe to prevent
some other people from turning sour after not keeping their cool when
the claims turn out to be just a bunch of hot air.

Zope may not be suitable for things more complex than weblogs and news
syndication, and maybe internal workflow solutions. Zope can certainly 
handle such purposes with ease. Its XML capabilities certainly hold 
value. Among other things.
But that doesn't make it a killer app. 

In any case, it seems to me that the posting behavior problem is related
to the claims made about Zope versus the problems inherent to Zope, and 
the kinds of groups of people who have taken to using it with
dedication.

While DC may not be responsible for the misleading and /or clueless 
claims of Zope followers, their business will probably end up suffering 
for it in the long run.

Comments?  Is anyone else fed up?

Guy N. Hurst