[Zope] Comments? To create products with Python or with ZClasses

[Jason Spisak]

Kevin:

<snip wonderful contribution to start a discussion>

> Development Tools
> 
>   PyProds are clearly at an advantage in terms of development
>   tools. Creating ZClasses and propertysheets, and adding views
>   and methods to a ZClass are certainly very user friendly
>   processes. However, editing code in a textarea has some definite
>   drawbacks.

Agreed.

>   Since PyProds reside in the filesystem, it is very
>   easy to use your favorite editor, CVS, grep and other tools when
>   working with your code.
> 
>   ZClasses will be getting help down the line in the form of
>   the ZopeStudio Mozilla app. Currently, you can edit your code
>   using your favorite editor if it supports FTP.

I was under the impression that FTP'ing into the a ZClass isn't supported
at the moment (I've tried it and it doesn't work still).  I would gladly be
corrected.

>   It also seems
>   possible to create some simple tools that allow you to edit your
>   ZClass code locally, store it in CVS, and send the changes through
>   via XML-RPC or ZClient.
> 
> Flexibility
> 
>   PyProds win in the flexibility department as well. In order to keep
>   evil people from gaining access to your box through your website,
>   through the web components can only do a subset of what Python can
>   do. For example, you can't open files in DTML or a PythonMethod.
>   PyProds live in the file system, and therefore have access to
>   all Python and Zope services. It is also likely to be a lot faster
>   to create a relatively complex object hierarchy in Python than
>   it would be to build it up through the web.
> 
>   A very important flexibility issue with ZClasses is that once you've
>   created the ZClass, there is no guaranteed way to change the base
>   classes. 

Ugh.  I've been bitten by this too many times to count.  *.-| So I am
building my Base classes in Python too.

>   There are apparently some really deep issues behind this.
>   To give yourself the ability to change base classes later on, it is
>   probably wise to create a Python base class for your ZClass and have
>   that class inherit from the appropriate other classes. Then, you can
>   just change that little bit of Python in order to add or remove a base
>   class. This has the added benefit that you can easily make minor
>   additions to your ZClass that would not be possible through the web
>   (such as writing a custom object traversal handler).
> 
> Ease of Programming
> 
>   Once you get into the swing of it, ZClasses are quite easy. Writing
>   complicated DTML Methods is not necessarily a fun thing, but
>   PythonMethods give you a way to avoid complicated DTML and still
>   develop through the web.
> 
>   The single biggest reason that I don't develop my products in
>   Python is the fact that you need to restart Zope to test your
>   changes. 

I there any other was besides the pdb to test you products without
restarting zope?  I really think that'd be worth me trying.  I wouldn't
know where to start though.  From what I know, Python modules can just use
the "reload" command.  Why doesn't Zope have that?

>   For that reason, it is probably best to test your classes
>   directly from the Python interpreter rather than through Zope.
>   This allows you to see the changes much more quickly. Once you think
>   your classes are basically working, you can fire up Zope and try
>   it from the web.
> 
>   While that method certainly will get the job done, I find
>   programming with ZClasses to be a nice fast process. You can
>   have two browser windows going, one with the code and one
>   where you're testing the code. The process of making a change
>   and trying it out is very fast.

That's my experience as well.  No substitute for this in Production where a
restart makes Zope look unstable.

> 
>   I also find that Versions are very nice for minor bug repair
>   on a production system.

MTC,



Jason Spisak
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