[Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)

[Andy McKay]

Inspired by this I wrote a quote db in about 3 minutes using Zope, sometimes
I just love it to bits.
http://dna.yi.org/Quotes

--
  Andy McKay, Developer.
  ActiveState.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy McKay" <andym@ActiveState.com>
To: "Andy McKay" <andym@ActiveState.com>; "Chris Withers"
<chrisw@nipltd.com>; <zope@zope.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)


> I have to say though reading his site a few interesting quotations popped
up
> (http://www.amk.ca/quotations/python-quotes.html)
>
> I picture a lump of inanimate flesh (a result from a relational database
> query) being infused with the spark of life (object behavior, aka class).
> -    Jim Fulton on the term "pluggable brains", 5 Jul 1999
>
> (On the statement print "42 monkeys"+"1 snake") BTW, both perl and Python
> get this wrong. Perl gives 43 and Python gives "42 monkeys1 snake", when
the
> answer is clearly "41 monkeys and 1 fat snake".
> -    Jim Fulton, 10 Aug 1999
>
> When Jim [Fulton] says "tricky" it means your brain could explode.
> -    Michel Pelletier, 15 Dec 1999
>
> :)
>
> For those, thanks...
>
> --
>   Andy McKay, Developer.
>   ActiveState.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andy McKay" <andym@ActiveState.com>
> To: "Chris Withers" <chrisw@nipltd.com>; <zope@zope.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 2:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
>
>
> > > > Hi guys,
> > > > I found this article written by someone from Quixote concerning
Zope,
> > > > describing its weaknesses and possible future development
> > > > http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/why-not-zope.html
> > >
> > > This guy is quite far up his own arse :-)
> >
> > I agree and Im just agreeing with what Chris said but putting it in a
> > different way.
> >
> > His main arguement here seem to be that building complicated stuff in
DTML
> > sucks. He's right it does, but you shouldn't be building big complicated
> > stuff in DTML (as Chris says).
> >
> > We almost exclusively write our code in python which means:
> > -    you can grep it
> > -    you can use CVS
> > -    you can write any test suite you like
> >
> > For most small applications DTML can suffice, but when it gets large you
> > should separate your code the way its intended, DTML is for simple logic
> and
> > presentation ONLY. Whilst PythonMethods are cool, I would naturally
stray
> > away from them for the above reasons for anything longer than about 5
> lines.
> >
> > The heavy lifting, logic and anything more should be in python. I won't
> > pretend its particularly easy Zope hurt quite a lot some times, but we
got
> > there..
> >
> > > It's probably more useful to work around the problems he describes
> > > rather than bitching about them and telling people not to use Zope:
> > >
> > > The 'no grep' is probably the most serious of his points. You can
easily
> > > get around it though, by using a ZCatalog. Admittedly, a decent search
> > > and replace interface (which I'm plugging for on zope-dev ;-) would be
> > > really nice (Zope 3? ;-)
> >
> > We actually tried cataloging the dtml... and it didnt work. This can be
a
> > pain I agree.
> >
> > [..]
> > > The test suite stuff is true for any web application, as has been
> > > discussed on the XP lists (so I'm told ;-) That said, there's ZUnit
and
> > > PyUnit now, so I'm not sure that his opinion on this is valid at all.
> >
> > You can write a your own test suite and for most web applications thats
> what
> > people do.
> >
> > > His comments about DTML are all valid, but it's a choice he'd made to
> > > write logic in DTML and he's a fool for doing so. IMNSHO, all 'logic'
> > > should be kept in python and you should never need to use the "" in a
> > > DTML tag.
> > [..]
> >
> > Hear, hear. As above, the "" is useful though...
> >
> > [..]
> > > Yes, it can be confusing, but maybe you should just write
> > > code which doesn't make assumptions about variables, or handles the
> > > cases when they're not there. The same is true of acquisition and the
> > > namespaces concepts, maybe with better documentation, people like him
> > > wouldn't have such problems.
> >
> > To me you should "never" make the assumptions you suggest regardless of
> the
> > environment...
> >
> > > Zope's built in FTP server is one of it's huge stengths, IMO. He
hasn't
> > > realised this and so bitches about it. You can always turn it off you
> > > know! Likewise the HTTP server, run Zope as a CGI if you must! :P
> >
> > "Apache already exists and is highly flexible and configurable" of
course
> it
> > is, use it if you want, grrr..... TMTOWTODI.
> >
> > More comments I would like to argue with:
> >
> > "it's not apparent that DC is quickly responding to fixes."
> >
> > I think DC and this group are great at responding to fixes, especially
> > anything serious or security related. Ok there are still a few bugs out
> > there that havent quite gone yet, but everybody has been great. The good
> > community spirit for me is one of Zope's strengths.
> >
> > "Object traversal is complicated since objects can affect how they're
> > traversed"
> >
> > And again this is bad for what reason. More power to us I say.
> >
> > Thats it.
> > --
> >    Andy McKay, Developer.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Zope maillist  -  Zope@zope.org
> > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> > **   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
> > (Related lists -
> >  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> >  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
> >
>