[ZCommerce] RE: Philip leaves Arsdigita (was: Re: [Zope] kerberos ? + LDAP + ecommerce + ZEO replication etc)

[Chris McDonough]

> Now back to the main story...
>
> ACS4 SQL is even using a Domain Object Model pattern with properly
> OO separation of a meta-data knowledge layer from operational
> layer in the RDBMS, with an access control system acquiring
> permissions from context, sophisticated Party/Group/Roles
> relationships that can express the whole UML concept of
> associations and based on accountability patterns
> from Fowler's "Analysis Patterns", a powerful petri net based
> workflow engine etc etc. Arsdigita has stopped Tcl development
> and moved to java.
>
> What more could a Zope guru want to persuade them to take a
> look at the possibility of demonstrating how
> much better that fits with Zope than with java or Tcl?

Manpower.  ;-)

> Oh yes - one more thing - an important Open Source community that
> has RDBMS skills somewhat lacking in the Zope Community,
> currently faced with upheavals in Arsdigita and actively working
> on a demonstrably viable escape route from Oracle and
> welcoming lots of new involvement.
>
> Seems that isn't enough though. No sign of interest from DC.

Lots of interest, not a lot of time.  This is a great fishbowl idea and
community development effort idea.

> Anybody listening?
>
> See my original posting:
> http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2001-March/086365.html
>
> Plain fact is that Zope *still* lacks an industrial strength
> RDBMS based ecommerce system that could have a huge impact
> in getting Zope widely deployed at ISPs, which is critical
> to getting lots more interest. Postgresql is now
> *fully* "industrial strength" (outer joins, better
> performance than Oracle and a python procedural language
> much better than Oracle java or PL/SQL just released).
>
> Right now when *lots* of people are getting involved in
> OpenACS and are doing a port of ACS4 for *both* Oracle
> and Postgresql 7.1 the opportunity is wide open for
> getting real momentum behind adding the strengths of
> the ACS RDBMS datamodel to the strengths of Zope. All
> the SQL previously mixed in with Tcl cruft is just
> sitting there waiting to be Zoped.
>
> The reasons for deferring it earlier ("it would take
> at least a week to study" and "got to resolve API
> documentation first") cannot possibly still apply.
>
> Everything else that could possibly be going well for
> Zope is obviously going amazingly well, and will continue
> to do so if somebody did spend a week or two on taking
> a look. Yet this key aspect for getting wide deployment
> is still being neglected.
>
> I haven't been hassling anybody about this for nearly a
> year, so I guess it's time for some CCing.
>
> Sure hope somebody who can do something about it reads
> the above link to previous posting concerning the
> ACS4 developments - and the links within it and then
> assigns some actual *resources*.
>
> On the first anniversary of having first pointed out
> that a viable ecommerce package would not happen
> without DC involvement and without checking out ACS,
> I go on the war path. That's not far off ;-)
>
> You don't get turnkey ecommerce packages
> without actual resources being put into a coordinated
> effort. It's the coordination and serious interest
> and commitment from DC that is lacking - there's no
> lack of prototypes showing that Zope is a perfectly
> suitable platform for the UI web side of ecommerce
> as well as content management (when and only when
> used together with an industrial strength RDBMS such
> as postgresql - nobody in their right mind does
> serious ecommerce without that). A project like
> the CMF could get this done *fast*.
>
> BTW another recent posting not responded to re
> Zope SSL support is pretty relevant to this as well:
>
> http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2001-April/086937.html

I think the question that needs to be answered is "How does it immediately
help DC to reimplement the ACS ecommerce module inside Zope?"  The answer so
far hasn't been compelling enough for a project to be created.  That's not
to say it won't become so in the future or that it's not a worthwhile
effort.  But DC has limited resources, and making a committment to port the
ACS ecommerce module can't possibly be done without being able to see a
tangible monetary benefit to DC as a company.

OTOH, look at ZPatterns.  DC literally had (and still has) nothing
whatsoever to do with ZPatterns.  However, lots of people use it, it's quite
popular.  I think the same could be done with a grassroots effort to get the
ACS module moved to Zope.  DC did provide help to Phillip and Ty in the way
of implementing changes to Zope that made it easier for ZPatterns to do what
it does, because we understand that it's a good long-term investment to do
so.  I think the relationship with DC and a group of folks who wanted to
port ACS ecommerce to Zope would probably best follow the same pattern.

I suggest that this project be fishbowled and those who are interested and
who stand to gain the most benefit take up the mantle of actually
implementing it.

- C