[Zope] RE: [ZCommerce] RE: Philip leaves Arsdigita (was: Re:[Zope]kerberos ? + LDAP + ecommerce + ZEO replication etc)

[Albert Langer]

[...]
[Walter]
>> I've just concluded a project (a CMS for a group of federated websites
with
>> a kinda half-assed "eCommerce" component) in Zope, simply because ACS was
>> too expensive for us at this point, and we needed a quick/ cheap win.
The
[...]
>> project has proven successful, and i believe we did indeed chose wisely;
>> nonetheless, as we look at the major challenges to be addressed in the
next
>> phase of development (i.e. PERSONALIZATION), i don't see anything "on the

[Paul]
> Can you explain personalization?  The CMF (formerly PTK) does some of
> personalization, but I wonder what parts it doesn't address of
> "personalization" as you see it.

[Walter]
Big question, Paul.  I could say a lot about this, but then i'd be quickly
out of my depth in technical discussion.  Let's just put it this way:
Amazon has taught us all a lot about how eCommerce sites can adapt
dynamically to user preferences and choices in such a way as to sell more
stuff WHILE building stronger customer relationships -- and ARS Digita has
taken great pains to build a lot of the business logic behind such magic
into their systems.  eCommerce isn't just about a shopping cart that
remembers your choices for the duration of a single session, but more about
maximizing Lifetime Customer Value.  ARS Digita has turnkey applications/
modules for managing this, i gather, the likes of which i have never heard
of in the Zope world.  But maybe i am missing somthing i should know about
-- so, like Ross Perot, i'm all ears :-)  |/|/

[Albert]
A good starting point for understanding what ACS does along these lines
is Philip Greenspan's online book (also available as an elegant coffee
table edition for the suits, with the same stunningly beautiful and
irrelevant photos ;-)

http://www.arsdigita.com/books/panda/

Especially chapters 9 and 14. The whole book is also necessary reading
for a serious study of what ACS is (or was) about.

BTW I agree with Charlie Cook that a lot of what Amazon does has more
to do with "collaborative filtering" than "personalization".

Though collaborative filtering isn't just a "marketing aid" and the
specialized algorithms originated from open source projects like
GroupLens (for collaborative filtering Usenet news groups) which
I remember tracking closely at the time.

Also agree with Jason Cunliffe that "peer to peer" has close connections
with ecommerce and Zope should be of great interest to people interested
in peer to peer. Collaborative filtering and peer to peer (which are
*very* closely related) is actually more where I'm coming from than
"ecommerce" - but for achieving mass penetration the connection with
ecommerce has been close enough to deserve serious study.

(Only responded with "condescending" advice as to how DC could achieve
"tangible monetary gain" because I was explicitly *asked* to do so).

[Walter]
>> shelf" in the Zope world that comes close to addressing the needs, and
the
>> ACS looks increasingly attractive.
>>
>> But i'm missing a lot of the background, and having a bit of trouble
>> following this thread, so maybe you can tell me:  is it possible that we
>> could port the ACS functionality into our Zope-based CMS as a "plug-in,"
and
>> could this be the sort of business rationale that Digital Creations needs
to
>> hear in order to justify the expensive of a person-week to do the sort of
>> analysis that you seem to be requesting?

[Paul]
> There are a number of alternatives.  As you described, we could view ACS
> as a requirements document and port it.  We could try to find a way to
> make Zope a frontend for ACS' e-commerce, or vice versa.
>
> I haven't heard much specifics about how this might work, so I can't
> comment on it.

[Albert]
I can comment on it, as requested by Walter.

Last time I did was in the following messages from June and July 2000:

http://lists.codeit.com/pipermail/zcommerce/2000-June/000257.html
http://lists.codeit.com/pipermail/zcommerce/2000-June/000259.html
http://lists.codeit.com/pipermail/zcommerce/2000-June/000265.html
http://lists.codeit.com/pipermail/zcommerce/2000-July/000316.html

As Paul mentioned, I haven't posted anything since. A lot has
changed since then - most important being that ACS *has* adopted
the database independence layer I highlighted as missing.

Perhaps if Paul had actually read it rather than just checking
whether I was "contributing" to zcommerce, he would have noticed
it included an offer to spend a couple of weeks doing UML diagrams.

Same message also included an offer to email anyone interested the
relevant SQL (DDL).

Perhaps if that hadn't been completely ignored at the time, Paul
would have more specifics and be better able to comment.

For an "executive overview" on why very few people are
contributing to the zcommerce list see someone else's later
message that starts with:

"After 2 months of struggling with Etailer, EMarket, and
ZCommerce I give up!"

http://lists.codeit.com/pipermail/zcommerce/2001-February/000371.html

The "high level" alternatives Paul mentions above confirm my "clairvoyant"
view that there hasn't been much study at DC of what's going on in ACS,
and OpenACS.

Both the "requirements" and "vice versa" options are simply irrelevant. An
inability to respond to Walter's simple question about the third option
Paul mentioned, and having to resort to talking about such "alternatives"
ought to be sufficient for someone at DC to be assigned to find out what
it's
all about.

As to the even "higher level" comment from Paul:

"[...] I've been watching ArsDigita, ACS, and OpenACS.  There's seems to be
a LOT of tumult going on there.  Open Source developers in particular seem
jaded by the events.

Shouldn't that factor into your opinion?  Nahh, everything seems pretty
clear to you."

The reality is that OpenACS is being flooded with these "jaded" open source
developers keen to work on it:

http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0001AP&topic_id=12&to
pic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design

Above also includes some links to ACS ecommerce issues.

[Walter]
Obviously i haven't got a clue about the how-to's.  Maybe some of the Zope/
ACS geeks out there do, and can advise.  FWIW, i am inclined to believe that
a move like this, if it's to be successful, is not driven by programmers,
but rather from the perspective of meeting real business needs.  I've got
plenty of those to talk about, and there's plenty more where i'm coming
from.  But without some analyst(s) at the table -- saavy about products on
both Zope and ACS sides and their feature-sets -- it'll be like the sound of
one hand clapping.  I for one am interested enough in this topic to explore
it further, but not if Digital Creations isn't.  |/|/

[Albert]
That's pretty much my perspective too. In another message Paul said:

"I'd like to emphasize that Albert's idea has merit.  We'd like to learn
more about the idea, as we don't know as much as we should about it.
But someone needs to make it easier for us -- unfortunately, it's just
reality that we don't have as much time to investigate possibilities as
we would like."

That's a distinct improvement on the previous:

"I'll confess, I'm viewing this thread through the lens of hearing "I've
got a great idea for someone else to do."  It's hard to separate the
attitude from the merit of the idea.  The idea has merit, that's
certainly true."

Nevertheless, Paul is *still* trying to get someone to scratch his itch,
even if he's stopped projecting that onto me. Problem is that nobody
*can* even if they were willing. Until someone at DC is actually assigned
to take the minimum time needed to get up to speed on this there simply
isn't anything anyone *could* do to "make it easier".

When someone at DC is assigned to spend a week or so looking into it,
I'll be happy to offer suggestions to that person as to things to look
at - though much better advice to "make it easier" could be available
from someone actually involved by just going through the list at the
link above.

[Walter]
>> It certainly seems to me that ACS is eating Zope's lunch in the market
for
>> "serious" eCommerce solutions - and now that the WorldBank is investing
so

[Paul]
> That's probably true.  eCommerce, as is obvious, hasn't been the place
> we've chosen to compete.  But it's hard to be competitive in other areas
> without some ecommerce story.

[Walter]
Quite so.  |/|/

>> much in the ACS through this "Gateway" project of theirs, with no
>> corresponding investments in the Zope world, the trend can only worsen.
So
>> it seems to this particular buyer in the market (small potatoes as i am)
>> that incorporating ACS functionality into Zope, instead of just waiting
for
>> someone to happen along and fund its development from scratch, is the

[Paul]
> Understand, of course, that this applies to *lots* of things.  And
> saying that DC has to eat it out of hide is OK, but there's a limit to
> how much we can apply that strategy to.

[Walter]
Fair enough.  You obviously can't commit resources without seeing tangible
proofs of interest in the marketplace.  |/|/

>> smarter way -- maybe even the only way -- to make it happen.  Without
>> industrial-strength eCommerce and all that personalization stuff that
goes
>> along with it and is so important to everyone these days, i'm afraid that
>> Digital Creations may be relegating Zope to the prospect of diminishing
>> returns in a market that will just have to expand without significant
>> Zope/DC participation.  If this is what you've been trying to tell Chris
>> McD, then i'm afraid i have to agree.

[Paul]
> You're certainly right that, if Zope wants to be competitive in
> eCommerce, then it needs an eCommerce story.  The story is a bit murkier
> for competing in other areas, but it's likely that Zope should have at
> least *some* production-class story for eCommerce.
>
> For personalization, depends on you definition.  We might alread have
> some of it.

[Walter]
Whaddya got?  I've still got my ears on... |/|/

[Paul]
> But concerning the remedy...is it *truly* the case that DC has to own
> this effort?  After all, many of you know more about eCommerce than us.
> We definately should participate, though.
>
> --Paul

[Walter]
You certainly shouldn't be going it alone, Paul.  Without the interest of
both the developer community AND business people in search of solutions,
this effort would likely not succeed.  But, presuming for a moment that the
subscribers to this list could muster enough developers and business
solution-buyers to warrant it, might you be willing to dedicate project
management and technical expertise enough to do a proper opportunity
analysis?

IMO, unless DC is serious enough about this issue to make at least that sort
of commitment, this worthy project is probably a non-starter.


|/|/alt
Walter Ludwick
wludwick@mail.walmar.com

[Albert]
I agree with Walter, and with Paul agreeing with Walter ;-)

On Paul's question concerning the remedy, the parts that DC has to "own"
are the APIs for application developers to work with and the implementation
of those APIs for:

a) Talking to the OpenACS SQL (there may be several layers here).

b) Talking to payment's gateways (a generic interface plus a couple
of sample implementations that are *not* clearly labelled "use of
this pre-alpha software for handling other people's money
could be grounds for a negligence suit").

A *lot* more than that might be needed for DC to be a serious
contender for big contracts in ecommerce - more in understanding
the market rather than software development. (Knowing why
MiniVend/Akopia is *not* a "good choice" would for example
be essential).

But that's the bare minimum - and a very quick and easy way to
get an "ecommerce story".

With that minimum there are indeed lots of people who could take
it from there. Without it they can't.

Almost immediate result would be simple shopping carts much
better than MiniVend/Akopia that would get widely adopted
by ISPs and give Zope some "brand recognition" during the
longer time it would take DC to get a real understanding
of what Walter was talking about re "personalization" and
start getting serious contracts revenue as a result of
Zope being a much better platform for the application
server end than ACS java.

BTW, by "own" I mean being the "ringleader" initiating a
fishbowl and ensuring it was carried through to completion.

I certainly do *not* mean that OpenACS would be interested
in joining with Zope. The cultures are *very* different.
Ask Chris ;-)

Just leave the SQL to them - they know what they are doing.

ACS has regarded the application server as "just plumbing",
between the SQL and the web server - as confirmed by
having simply abandoned further work with AOLserver and
Tcl in favor of different application server for essentially
the same "product" in ACS 4 java.

There's nothing much that could or should be "ported" in
the OpenACS Tcl. All DC needs to do is standardize
python/Zope interfaces to the underlying SQL engine
(I don't mean DAs to the database engine, but a Zopish
replacement, not port, for the fairly thin layers done
in Tcl).

I am *not* "suggesting that OpenACS would switch web
application frameworks". I do believe that Zope has
a better application framework than what can be
done with AOLserver/Tcl or java. Others, quite
reasonably, won't believe that until they see it done.