[Zope] Zope "fitness"

[Randall F. Kern]

This sounds like a neat portal, I hope your project goes smoothly.

My team just made beta today on version 2.0 of our product.  Version 1
was written in PHP, and I have several comments on why you might prefer
Python (and Zope) to PHP.

Version 1.0 of our system was done in PHP for reasons similar to the
"flat learning curve" comment you make below; it worked, and it was easy
and quick to go from HTML to a working database application.

However, when we wanted to expand our system or fix bugs in a core
component, PHP fell short.  This lead me to Python, and then to Zope.

Python provides a programming language that "fits our brains".  It's
also one of the fastest, most productive languages I've ever used.  When
I'm unsure how a function works, or exactly how to slice a sequence to
get the effect I want I can just start an interpreter and try it.  Most
importantly, it is far and away the most fun programming I've done in a
long time.

By adding Zope we get a great content management system, and a good
framework for security and other nasty server programming problems.  It
also provides a basis for customization with DTML and properties.

As for complexity, yes, Zope can be complicated.  In particular, most of
the problems I see are either super-deep-dark Python hacks that I really
shouldn't have done, _or_ Python expressions being used inside DTML tags
(this results in some syntax strangeness.)  I didn't read the thread on
checking the string for bad characters, but using a Python Script or a
Python Product it would also just be a one liner.

I don't know what is available for user management in Zope, because
early on I decided my best solution was a user folder integrated in my
product.  However, I have dealt with several of the other issues you
raise.

For your special site versions, I think it would be easy to write a
SiteAccess (a Product that comes with Zope 2.3.0+) rule that would first
call a setup python script for each event (subdomain), and then let the
normal site code run.  This setup script could set various values that
your main scripts could then refer to; things like default values for
your input fields, special banners, a different style sheet, etc.  I
have not done this in particular, but I have done similar things.  I
would much rather try to do this in Zope than PHP.

The plugin-applets you mention seem to be a combination of client-side
components (like the date picker) and server side components (like
message forums).  Zope doesn't add much to client-side component
development, but doesn't hinder it either.  Server side component
development and integration I've found to be much easier with Zope than
PHP.  For one thing, general shared configuration is easy in Zope (using
properties), whereas with PHP you have to store all your configuration
in source, or write some script to parse a config file.

DTML includes built in support for the <dtml-tree> tag, which implements
the expandable tree control you see in the manage UI.  This tag calls
back into your code to get the list of elements to show when a node is
expanded, so it should be just as fast as your script code.  It doesn't
appear to allocate storage for anything it isn't using, so I think it
will be quite fast.  I've never used it with a data set this large, but
I think it would work quite well.

I don't know anything about doing WAP/WML with Zope, but once again
since Zope has a nice consistent way to interact with content and
configuration, I would prefer to work on multiple protocols (like WAP
and HTTP) using Zope than PHP.  With PHP you would be forced to invent
your own internal layers; with Zope you could reuse existing mechanisms
like ZSQL Methods and properties.

As for database support and flexibility, my site was first built using
MySQL, and I moved to PostgreSQL in a couple days, including building
the new database schema (which was quite a bit more sophisticated, using
foreign keys and checks that mysql doesn't support).  Zope's internal
database is also very helpful for storing configuration and static
content (welcome pages, announcements, etc.)  One problem I've seen
people complain about on this list is the difficulty of updating a bunch
of ZSQL Methods to use a new database adapter (if you switch from MySQL
to PostgreSQL.)  However, it's very easy to write a quick python app
that connects to the ZODB and updates all your ZSQL Methods to use the
new DBA.  Dealing with SQL queries is much easier in Zope than PHP, but
switching between database servers (if you've written a good layer
in-between your application logic and the PHP DB apis) would be easier
in PHP.

I also do all my development in vi :).  I just saw on this list earlier
a file system for linux that mounts an FTP server into your file system.
That would be great for Zope development.  You can also use vim with the
FTP extensions (my solution).

-Randy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jens Benecke [mailto:jens@jensbenecke.de]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 11:02 AM
> To: Zope Users List
> Subject: [Zope] Zope "fitness"
>=20
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> I've been lurking in this list for a couple weeks now and=20
> I've learnt a lot
> about Zope's capabilities. I've installed it and looked at a=20
> lot of guides,
> howtos and documentation on the Zope website. However, I'd=20
> like to make
> sure I make the right descision in choosing Zope and for that=20
> I'd like to
> ask a couple more questions.
>=20
>=20
> We are running a "hitch-hiker" portal in Germany right now.=20
> It lets users
> insert a route they drive and others can search if they are=20
> going the same
> way, then drive together, saving time and travel costs. There are more
> services like contacting people, personalization, etc. in planning.
>=20
> I like PHP because it was there to learn quickly and there was a flat
> learning curve if you already know HTML. Insert a small PHP=20
> tag here and
> there and so slowly extend your site, being productive all the time.=20
>=20
>=20
> In the next couple weeks, I would like to redesign the site=20
> completely and
> -PERHAPS- choose Zope as the development environment. That at=20
> least partly
> depends on the answers I get here :-)
>=20
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> Zope, as I understood is a bit more than just a server based=20
> HTML scripting
> engine with database access. It takes OOP to the web and=20
> doesn't see pages,
> directories but objects that can be extended - which is an=20
> idea I like a
> lot. Some of the things that I am planning to do seem to be=20
> just the thing
> Zope was made for.
>=20
>=20
> What I would like to know is not just whether things are=20
> "possible" with
> Zope, I want to know whether these things are _easy_ with=20
> Zope. I've seen
> the reply to the post where somebody was asking how to check=20
> if a string
> contained only certain chars and the answer was a 10-line=20
> <dtml-something
> ...> script, which kind of scared me. This would be a=20
> one-liner regexp in
> PHP or Perl ...
>=20
>=20
> - Transparent User registration. When a new user visits our=20
> site I want to
>   re-recognize him after that. With that info, I would like=20
> to know things
>   like
>=20
>   - how much % of users came a second time
>   - how much % of users viewed how many pages
>   - etc.
>=20
> - Non-transparent user registration :-) I need an "easy" (in terms of
>   developing, and using) way for the users to save their settings and
>   perhaps even choose several profiles for themselves, for=20
> address lists
>   and so on.
>=20
> - For certain dates, like festivals or special holidays, I=20
> want to take the
>   whole site and "extend it" (see OOP) with a couple=20
> additional features,
>   and present _that_ site in a sub-domain. Like
>=20
>   - different colours / title bar
>   - pre-selected entry fields (e.g. for a sports festival=20
> when everybody is
>     driving to the same place anyway)
>   - etc.
>=20
> - Plug in "applets". For example, for a date entry field I'd=20
> like a small
>   calendar pop-up where people can select a date, and perhaps=20
> also select
>   dates like "next monday three weeks from now" or something.=20
> Those might
>   be available as PHP classes or as Zope products and the=20
> point would IMHO
>   be how to integrate them in our system.  Other extensions might be a
>   message forum, email forms, rating other users, or whatever.
>=20
> - One thing I specially like is the "tree" view method (which=20
> is also used
>   in the tutorial). Is this a special Zope feature or just=20
> "one of many"?
>   How would it cope with a _lot_ of data (I'm talking about x*10,000
>   entries in total)? (This might be a way of browsing=20
> available database
>   entries like cities, for our users. ATM we are using more=20
> or less a flat
>   list which is not optimal for 29,000 database entries.)
>=20
> - Plug in WAP/WML and cell phone short message system=20
> capability. I want
>   users to be able to query our system by sending a SMS (I've got a
>   provider for this already) or using their cell phone as web=20
> browser via
>   WAP.
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> - Database flexibility. The whole site will run on a MySQL or Postgres
>   database (haven't decided yet) and I probably won't need=20
> Zope's internal
>   Database. I guess this won't be a problem.
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> - vi compatability :) I haven't yet found out where the actual files
>   reside, but one thing I do *not* want to use for regular=20
> development is
>   the web frontend. File/Save, or :wa , and refresh the=20
> browser window is
>   my idea of development environment ... I hope this is possible.
>=20
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> Those are the ideas I have. I've got a rough idea how to=20
> implement them in
> PHP and I can see it won't be an easy task whatever I chosse=20
> to use. I'm
> perfectly willing to lern Python and do most of the scripting=20
> in Python
> anyway (putting thousands of "dtml-tags" into the source=20
> isn't exactly the
> way to go I suppose) but I would really like to hear your input first.
>=20
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> Thanks a lot!!
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Jens Benecke
> =B7
> " ...screams erupted at a Seattle hotel where Microsoft=20
> founder Bill Gates
> was addressing an education and technology conference. (...)"
> 			-- cnn.com, Reportage =FCber das Erdbeben=20
> in Seattle
>=20