[Zope] A new list needed? - Confessions of a newbie.

[Trevor Toenjes]

My guess is that I am considered a "noise-maker" by some on the list.
I agree with Ivan's post as to part of the problem.

I have benefited from responses of more experienced users, including Andrew,
and have been stopped from jumping off the Zope cliff with some of their
encouragement "that it will get easier one day".  For that I am "grateful"
(most days  ;)
It is despicable that anyone is personally attacked in such a small
community for wanting to advance the Zope cause by better organizing
communication.

My message follows these topics.
   A -- my rules as a newbie (Zope docs suck when you cant find the answer
yourself)
   B -- benefits of a newbie list (fix Zope to reduce the noise)
   C -- categories for a Squishdot type system
   D -- types of Newbies (HUGE DISPARITY)

A> ----
I formed my own rules before I post anything to the list.  This may be the
foundation of Newbie etiquette that someone might want to post as a general
guide of participation when subscribing.
If I run into a problem.
1. Scan Zope-shelf for the keyword in any of the Zope docs (Zope book, Zope
Dev, Zope Admin, etc)(i am a zopeshelf addict)
2. search zope.org for the keyword (read all remotely related how-tos)
3. search mail archives (a mostly worthless interface IMO, because it
doesn't display threads well, and many posted Q's go unanswered)
4.  Determine if I could use a related keyword and start research over
***The only exception is when I have panicked over SiteAccess issues and
locked myself out of Zope.

Then I feel I can post a basic newbie Q.  Sometimes this process can take a
couple days to exhaust my research.  And I get really pissed at Zope and
documentation if I cant find what I think is a basic answer, and have to
post to the list.  (THIS IS WHY I INCLUDED IVAN's POST)

B> ---
I dont have a problem posting my q's to a zope-newbie list.  ***This could
be a useful resource in the future for the community and Zope-devers to
correct some of the stupid things that consistently trip up newbies.  If the
same "qualified" Q's are asked all the time, that is a problem with Zope,
not newbies.
My concern is that I have stumbled on several "basic" Zope deficiencies that
even experienced developers were not able to answer quickly.  In my quest
for Zen, I consider the quirkiness and undocumented syntaxes part of the
magic that you only acquire thru the Zope experience.

my bad example:  I am still perplexed why the default index_html created
with a folder is not a DTMLMethod.  If newbies assume that the ZMI will
provide the most used scenarios, then this basic "hello world" step misleads
newbies in almost every instance and creates a misunderstanding of
acquisition immediately.
And there is not enough emphasis to direct newbies to writing Python scripts
early in the game.

As Ivan suggested, part of the problem with the noise, is that basic answers
are hard to find.

As far as a Squishdot-type Zope board...
Here are the categories that I use so far to organize my journey.

Installing Zope, maintaining Zope, version issues
Zope/DTML Basics
Python Scripting
External Methods
ZClasses - Internal Products
External Products
SiteAccess related
ZPT
CMF
Session Tracking

As you can see I am missing ZEO, reading the source, user management, and
more advanced topics.

D> --
I see part of the problem with the community is with the "HUGE" disparity in
the definition of a newbie and the source of some frustrations.

Types of Newbies (everyone using Zope for the first time):
1-  those that only knew HTML/CSS and attracted to Zope to build a better
website (DTML and ZClasses makes them really dangerous because they will mix
logic and presentation)
2-  those that use ASP or ColdFusion environments so have some programming
experience (Python scripts and ZPT make them dangerous because they can
separate logic from presentation)
3-  experienced developers that know VB, PERL, Java and SQL/db already
(building External products that are truly portable makes them dangerous)
4-  those that also know C and python and study the Zope source for their
answers (they are already dangerous, and should help improve Zope's core)

-Trevor



> My humble opinion is that the amount of relatively simple & repeating
> questions on this list is caused by:
>
>  a) shortage of documentation, a lack of a complete Zope reference in
>     particular.  And possibly a FAQ or several topical FAQs could do
>     good
>
>  b) little (not enough) visibility of the existing documentation, and
>     absence of it in the Zope installation package itself.
>
> --
> Ivan
>
>
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