[Zope] Cut the Dreamweaver bashing ;-)

[kosh@aesaeion.com]

On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Chris Withers wrote:

> kosh@aesaeion.com wrote:
> >
> > I find it harder to do in those apps then just doing the work by hand.
>
> I'd suggest that there are a lot of people who find it easier ;-)

I'd suggest lots of people find it easier to write apps in VB then other
languages. However that does not make VB a good choice. The programs tend
to be slower, user more memory, be more crash prone, and have no security
to them.

>
> > I
> > can just type out what I want and not worry about pointing and clicking on
> > various things.
>
> Have you actually used Dreamweaver?
>

Yes

> > It may be faster for the unskilled but it also produces worse pages.
>
> What are you basing that statement on?
>

>From looking at the source code of the page.

> > However I find that if you have read the html, xhtml, css, dom, etc specs
> > and know them then it is faster to develop manually then using any of
> > those helpful editors.
>
> Uhuh, so the features of said editor that let you check for those things, and , more
> importantly, the behaviour of various browsers (all of which pay little or no attention to
> the specs ;-) are worthless? I don't think so, I actually think that for people who don't
> have time to read the specs (man, how much time do you have?!) tools like Dreamweaver
> provide a method of producing more reliable and robust HTML.
>

Would you trust a contractor to build a house if they did not know the
building specs in an area? How about a programmer that did not read the
specs for the language they where using? Overall it comes down to a simple
fact. If you are going to be working with a tool professionally it is your
job to take it professionally. That means taking the time to read about
how the tools work and what the requirements are for working in the field
you are. Computer programs tend to be the bug ridden pieces of crap that
they are because so many ignore that. It is the same with web pages. I am
sorry that it takes time to learn information but that is what it takes
and that is what has to be done. Sure you can avoid it for a while but it
will catch up with you.

The specs are updated about once a year at most and it should only take
about 10 hours to learn at least most of html/xhtml and css which should
cover most of what people need.

Also you would be surprised how much attention to specs browsers really
pay. If you specify a strict doctype most of the newer browsers render
differently and render faster so long as there are no errors.

> > Overall I have not liked code generation tools for
> > any language since you spend more time cleaning up afterwards then it
> > would take to write the code by hand.
>
> You are in a minority ;-) I suspect you've used some really bad tools in the past and are
> now using those experiences to judge every other tool that comes along. Well, I'm sorry
> you need to hang on to those views...
>

I have used some that where supposed to be pretty good but I still did not
like them. Overall if you have a good memory and can read fast it is
faster to just learn how the system works and do it by hand instead of
having the computer make guesses for you.