[Zope] What causes the community to stall so often?

[Bill Anderson]

On Fri, 2002-03-08 at 16:31, Derek Simkowiak wrote:
> -> > RPM is system-wide version control.  'Pristine' sources.
> -> 
> -> How can it be more pristine that getting the source from the manufacturer
> -> and compiling it?
> 
> 	It can be more pristine by having checksum, filesize, and public
> key signature checks to verify that you're using the source EXACTLY as
> distributed by the 'manufacturer'.  I.e., who knows whether or not that
> mirror you just downloaded from has a respectable admin...

Of course, this doesn't do a dmaned thing if rpm has a script in it that
does an rm -rf /var/lib/rpm.

> 
> 	RPM does this automatically for me, instead of me having to do it
> myself manually.

Uhh hold on their partner, rpm only checks sigs if you tell it to, it is
an additional step. besides, I can provide source to a package, a
checksum, and there you go. 

> 
> -> > A safe upgrade path.
> -> 
> -> How does this become more safe with RPM's? If a new version is incompatible
> -> with your data somehow, it will be incompatible no matter how many RPMs you
> -> throw at it.
> 
> 	I was not referring to data compatibility.  What you say above is 
> obvious.

Then, you meant convenient, not safe. ;^)
 
> 	I was referring to (a) the updated list of dependencies, including
> what versions of which shared libraries you need installed, (b) pristine
> sources (see above), and (c) the RPM scripts that automatically
> shutdown/close/halt all necessary components, do the upgrade, then
> restart/open/run the program again.  What happens if you do a "./configure
> ; make ; make install" on a server where you have a running Apache or Zope
> install?  

The same thing as with an rpm. A Makefile can stop/start services and
process just like an RPM does, and you *will* need a script to do so in
either case. 

> 
> -> > A way to CLEANLY uninstall something.
> -> 
> -> As said before: rm -r does that for Zope. And it only depends on you having
> -> the correct version of Python.
> 
> 	Admittedly, with Zope the RPM thing is less of an issue because
> it's self-contained in its own directory.  However, almost all of the GNU
> packages will put stuff in /usr/bin/, /usr/local/bin/, /usr/X11R6/, /lib,
> or some combintation thereof.  So, I use RPMs.  Since I use RPMs for
> everything else, I want to use it for Zope, too.

Well, you know what they say, if all you have is a hammer, everything
looks like a nail. ;^)


> 	Hell, if a SRPM were available, it would allow me to generate my
> own RPMs with a single --rebuild command.

You don't nee done of those, either. Just a spec file in a tarball. rpm
-tb foo.src.rpm.

> -> having a binary install. Instead somebody (and it seems to me that you guys
> -> think it is Zope corp ) has to maintain and test a ton of binary
> -> installations for several different version of several different operating
> -> systems.
> 
> 1. I don't want Zope to test them.  The community will do that.
> 2. An RPM .spec is very easy to maintain (or so I'm told)
> 3. I'm only asking for one, maybe two more than the Windows one they are 
> already doing

Which would be followed later by this from someone else: "Hey, how come
you provide an rpm for foo, but not bar. I want one for bar, and dammit,
I like zope so you ZopeCo people need to get on the ball and make them.
Don't worry, we the community can test them."

> 
> -> I suspect this is some of the reson for the great craving for RPM's. People
> -> simply do not realize that Zope installs much more easily and much more
> -> cleanly than most unix softwares. They don't realize that RPM's for Zope in
> -> most cases are more work than non-RPM installs.
> 
> 	I want an RPM because, as someone who does use RPMs for system 
> administration, I check to see if something is installed with a command 
> like:
> 
> [dereks@dereks src]$ rpm -qa | grep -i zope
> Zope-zserver-2.4.3-1
> Zope-2.4.3-1
> 
> 	For me to (a) know, and (b) remember 6 months later, that Zope,
> unlike everything else on the system, was a tarball placed in
> /usr/share/zope or wherever, is an unsound administration practice.

To me, using a hammer on everything, even if it isn't a nail, is folly.
:^)


-- 
Bill Anderson
Linux in Boise Club                  http://www.libc.org
Amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic.
Amateurs build Linux, professionals build Windows(tm).