[Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)

[Kari-Hans Kommonen]

Just a comment from a relative newbie (part time (10%) inhouse developer):

DTML is easier to grasp as a beginner. ZPT is probably the right 
direction to go, but it sure does not explain itself to the reader.

As (especially non-programmer) learners of Zope must survive mainly 
through reading through and tweaking example code, when they have to 
choose whether to base their work on DTML or ZPT, it is very natural 
to choose to work with DTML because it is easier to understand and 
tweak. And also because so much of the stuff one begins to change is 
still in DTML.

ZPT seems a very nice and useful solution to the basic dilemma of 
embedding customization dynamics into the stupid format of HTML. But 
because of the constraints HTML and the web editors impose on it, it 
becomes sadly hard for casual developers.

I think there is a need for a higher level solution to the problem.

Meanwhile, it would be very important to get much more examples of 
the best ways to use the features of ZPT to the max. While code can 
easily be browsed, it is not always easy to understand why things 
were done in a certain way or even why they work in the first place - 
e.g. what assumptions, structures and conditions they depend on. 
(This unfortunately applies also to DTML...)

Having spent now a lot of time in order to manage to do new things 
with DTML and encountering so much uncertainty of what I manage to 
get working (and still often not really understanding what made the 
difference since the apparent logic I figured out has let me down so 
many times now), it will take a long time before I could change my 
stuff from DTML to ZPT and risk losing the ability to at least think 
that I understand what is going on...

kh

...
At 12:13 +0000 14.2.2003, Chris Withers wrote:
>[keep stuff on the list]
>
>Ausum Studio wrote:
>>>You shouldn't need to learn two templating languages and a scripting
>>language
>>>just to use one web framework ;-)
>>
>>Talking seriously, after all this time of watching things going by, I've
>>come to think that by having both languages we have an advantage over the
>>competition.
>
>How so?
>
>>>Now, any other excuses why you think DTML should still exist? ;-)
>>
>>Unfortunately neither the three of them work  :)  (in the context of my
>>needs, of course)
>
>Well how about explaining how they don't work then?
>
>>When you have the time, I'd appreciate that you take a look at CMFPortlet's
>>code,
>
>Nah, I'm just interested in stopping new Zope users being conned 
>into thinking DTML is useful for anything. I'd also like to see Zope 
>down to one templating and one scripting language.