[Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)
sean.upton@uniontrib.com
sean.upton@uniontrib.com
Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:08:58 -0800
What you need to keep in mind, though, is the following:
- For most html coders, path-based expressions are easier to grasp. The
suggestion that DTML support this is actually quite a good idea, but as it
is now, it doesn't.
- Lower risk: code people have less worry about code being messed with by
those that design.
- Excessive tagging (dtml-with) for namespace traversal is confusing to
non-programmers, who do not understand the intricacies of namespaces. A
path is much more natural.
- Most HTML developers do not validate their code. ZPT forces well-formed
code to be used, and HTML developers not to have bad habits.
- ZPT is well-documented for starters, but only if you know where to start
looking. I have photocopies of the Dr. Dobbs article by Amos on ZPT (DDJ,
Feb. 2002. I have used whiteout to correct one code-snippet typo on p. 69).
I'm pretty sure that CMP sells back-issues of DDJ, it's worth geting a copy.
Designers new to ZPT can look through this article to get a pretty quick
start, IMHO.
- ZPT is better for the interaction between coders and designers - both
ways. I as a coder need to sometimes put a bit of functionality into a
template, but I don't want to break the design. ZPT prevents techies from
breaking design work.
All these things considered, even if DTML is better for some individuals,
ZPT is a better bet for an organization with diverse players and team
projects.
Sean
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Lewis [mailto:michael@nichestaffing.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 2:43 PM
To: sean.upton@uniontrib.com
Cc: hancock@anansispaceworks.com; zope@zope.org
Subject: RE: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)
On Tue, 2003-02-18 at 14:41, sean.upton@uniontrib.com wrote:
> DTML just doesn't scale
> to non-techies or content people who are talented at HTML, but not
> 'programming.'
>
> Sean
>
Being exactly what you are referring to, ie: someone who knows html, but
not programming, I have to disagree. I tried Zope initially BECAUSE of
it's tag based scripting language. I found it very easy to learn, and
granted, I have encountered some syntax issues that were a problem for a
while, but searching on zope.org and asking for direction from list
members, everything has worked out just fine. I constructed 26 virtual
sites with Zope and DTML. I have also looked at ZPT and found it rather
confusing. I guess maybe it's just the way I'm wired or how I process
information, in any case, since we're not all the same, I feel that
continuing to offer both solutions would be the most appropriate course.
I have never experienced any thing weird in using DTML except for using
a dtml-in inside sendmail. Thanks to Dylan, that was easily fixed in a
couple of minutes.
Michael
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Hancock [mailto:hancock@anansispaceworks.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:07 PM
> To: zope@zope.org
> Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)
>
>
> On Monday 17 February 2003 09:01 am, Chris Withers wrote:
> > Kevin Carlson wrote:
> > > Come on folks. There's nothing wrong with supporting two templating
> > > languages. Quite honestly, dtml is much easier to learn for most and
> > > has it's place in application development
>
> DTML has worked pretty much flawlessly for me. I have *NEVER* encountered
> any
> of the bugaboos about obfuscation or excessive code in it that have been
> claimed to be its faults. I use it in an admittedly complex presentation
> layer, and it provides excellent support for everything I need to do
there.
> Python does the heavy lifting just fine, and I see no reason to change
this
> part of my design.
>
> > ...not unless some of its major current flaws are corrected. I think
this
> is
> > possible but I don't see the point of having two templating languages
for
> one
> > app server especially as we're now getting to the stage where you need
to
> know
> > _both_ before you can do anything useful with Zope :-(
>
> Okay, I'm game, let's give ZPT the boot. It's a much more specialized
> language (HTML documents *only*), looks *really* obfuscated. Stuffs all
its
> code into HTML attributes which is great for hiding the code away, but
awful
>
> if you want to see the document structure. DTML and Python work fine
> together, and are capable of handling the whole range of tasks I need.
> ZPT+Python cannot.
>
> So ZPT is neither necessary nor sufficient.
>
> Terry
>
> --
> Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
> Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com
>
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--
Michael Lewis <michael@nichestaffing.com>
NicheStaffing.com