[Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)

[sean.upton@uniontrib.com]

No. No. No. [banging head against the wall!]

This is not an organizational problem.  Requiring designers to know h=
ow to
code functional instead of just presentational aspects.  A large
online-production organization requires specializations, and this lea=
ds to
two types of designers or interface developers:

=091 =3D> Those with interest in stepping up to learn code
=09=09- HTML folks learning coding via PHP, CF, ASP etc.
=09=09- Show desire to use HTML coding as a launch pad
=09=09=09to learn new skills programming
=092 =3D> Those with interest in refining their creative skills
=09=09- Creative types, good at integrating multiple
=09=09=09media using HTML as a glue-language
=09=09- Good with HTML, CSS, Visual design, interactivity

There is a 3rd class of folks doing templates and HTML documents:
=09
=093 =3D> HTML-literate content specialists
=09=09- Journalists
=09=09- Online Creative Services writers
=09=09- Online marketing specialists

Of these 3 categories, suggesting an approach of using DTML as a heav=
ier
template to prevent stuffing all application functionality into a Pyt=
hon
core application only works with the first group.  ZPT is the only sc=
alable
solution for organizations with all 3 types of people, because it kee=
ps
things familiar and what is not familiar (i.e. tal attributes) is pre=
tty
unbreakable because it isn't generally touched.  Generally speaking t=
hough,
you want presentation designers to fall into category #2, and your co=
mpany's
staffing process should reflect that in a larger online production
organization.  I am not talking about people who can only code HTML t=
hrough
Dreamweaver, GoLive, etc... I mean the same thing you mean when talki=
ng
about HTML people, but I don't expect them to be able to grasp functi=
onal
development as well as it would/could be done in the logic layer or b=
y
developers/coders.

The way to support this sort of organizational structure is to keep t=
he
presentation as light-weight in functional terms and capabilities as
possible.  ZPT achieves this, and forces the code to live in the logi=
c layer
(i.e. in my Python products and TTW glue scripts, some of which are D=
TML -
but DTML is only used by coders, not HTML people).  We use DTML for w=
riting
small widgets that are heavy in code but also heavy in presentation (=
this is
similar to what Ausum suggests in his use of "pagelets," I think), bu=
t these
widgets are written by programmers and not HTML folks.  The big thing=
 in a
large organization is that you need not have the assumption that all =
(even
really good) HTML people need to know how to code even a bit or logic=
, and
this puts ZPT at the forefront for this use-case.  And saying this is=
 not a
sign of organizational dysfunction, just staffing specializations nee=
ded to
scale online production.

Also, Terry, I think your message from Friday took my original messag=
e out
of context.  I didn't say that ZPT prevented communication, but that =
it
eliminated the need for constant "get everyone involved" reintegratio=
n.
You need to understand that this level of relative independence is ne=
eded
because organizational efficiency is total crap without it.  If the
development people need to be consulted every time there is a minor
look-and-feel redesign, they have no time to develop code or work on =
new
projects.  Anything I can do, I will do to keep technical staff from =
needing
to consult designers just to keep things from breaking... Ideally, on=
ly when
functionality changes with look and feel should the technical staff n=
eed to
re-integrate the functional machinery into the otherwise visual templ=
ates.
ZPT accels at this.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
=46rom: Terry Hancock [mailto:hancock@anansispaceworks.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 12:47 PM
To: zope@zope.org
Subject: RE: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)


On Sunday 23 February 2003 09:00 am, Fernando Martins wrote:

> Maik Jablonski wrote:
> >=A0Stephan is not the only one... I like ZPT (great concept), but =
I still
> >=A0prefer DTML too... Just another measurement error? ;)

> Maybe you don't work with a designer(s) who barely understand html =
and you
> don't need to go back and forth between design and coding? Then, zp=
t might
> not be make a big difference?

Some people would consider that an organizational problem.  Either pa=
y for=20
training, or get smarter designers. ;-D

For my purposes, anyway, a designer who "barely understands HTML" is
useless,=20
anyway.  As I mentioned, I don't think that form without function is =
worth=20
pursuing.  Anyway, we're more likely to have designers who've never s=
een a=20
GUI page designer (or have and hate them).  You know -- the kind of
designers=20
who try to make things look good in Internet Explorer, Mozilla, *and*=
 w3m.

[snip rest of comment]