[Zope] Zope Development as a beginner

[William Yeung]

-----Original Message-----
From: Dylan Reinhardt [mailto:zope at dylanreinhardt.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 10:31 PM
To: William Yeung
Cc: Zope Users
Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope Development as a beginner


On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 01:36, William Yeung wrote:
> Dear all,
> Recently I am seeking new opportunity for developing low cost web 
> based solution on linux (I was classified as MS Man :P)

Ah... welcome to the other side, then. :-)

>  in order to do lower end market. I was playing quite a bit different 
> web development platform (ASP, ASP.NET + C#, and now Zope) and I found

> the following conclusion: Zope seems has a good concept but difficult 
> to manage in terms of granularity of the project.

I'll see if I can help out with that conclusion.

* I think I would put this as an example- the example shopping cart.
Each function become its own python script, while they are all in fact
doing the same goal- should actually have these all things warp together
in a class say, a ShoppingCart, and then put tiny scripts to invoke
those methods. To use n files to just join together and become a class
(with the folder context) is really... Looks really messy, which doesn't
give me a good sight of looking the entire business logic together.


>  I found myself get very much feeling on Zope is actually still very 
> script based- which is quite similar to what ASP and PHP did!

That's an understandable conclusion.  DTML looks and smells like ASP and
PHP but it is a big mistake to use it that way.  

DTML and TAL work better if you use them for as little as possible and
hand off any real logic to Python.  Developing this way delivers the
best of both worlds: logic is done in a powerful, flexible programming
language and layout is managed in a tag-based templating language.

>  I can see some of the different advantages (e.g. the acquisition of
> objects) on the web publishing side- but when I am thinking about 
> implementing an high cohesion based system such way of maintaining 
> objects and methods seems give me very much hassle on trying to 
> coordinate things together.

Perhaps that's because the Zen of Acquisition has not settled in.  Care
to share an example of something that seems more cumbersome in Zope than
in ASP or PHP?

* I can understand- I am not saying that its more cumbersome than ASP
(which is rubbish anyway, even I am on MS platform I hate it) or PHP,
what I mean is ... Like the paragraph I have stated above, about how
these all-together business logics being broken into so many pieces in
order to get it work together as a single goal.


>  I think I am comparing this with ASP.NET, which seems give a very 
> good way to separate UI and logic layer, while still has very good 
> cohesion on each function of a webpage as a frontend to use. Think 
> about I have 20+ different controls on a same screen which requires 
> pretty much back and forth database activities and session control in 
> order to finish a transaction... seems Zope is not very good at this 
> kind of development.

It's hard to comment on that without knowing more.  Maybe you could
suggest a trivial example and give us a chance to take a whack at it?

*I would really invite you to look at ASP.NET and C#, I think just an
hour can give you very clear basics understanding. My feeling is that is
much more cohesive.



>  However, even after the first sight I have to say I love python quite
> much- the language is convenient and clean, gives very good 
> readability in terms of coding... so I really dream about if someone 
> could come up with something more similar to ASP.NET instead of ZPT 
> and DTML style

It may be heretical to suggest this on a Zope list, but you may be more
interested in Webware: http://webware.sourceforge.net/

Webware uses Python Server Pages, an environment that is Python-focused
but far more like ASP than Zope is.

* I think what you are saying PSP is something similar to ASP, not
ASP.NET... My friend has been talking about Apple WebObjects, while I am
not sure if that is the one with similar terminology.

* ok a quick example, declare 5 textboxes and 2 buttons on the ASPX file
(similar to a template, except it declares object context) and then at
the class file behind the scene (aspx.cs file) all these objects are
directly being related back to actual object variables (member variables
in the inherited page class) and then you can either use event handler
to handle the click event of that button, or use properties to refer to
a particular textbox's value, and change it on the class file, all these
dynamic happened changes will be feed back to the web browser client
after the post event has finished. You don't even have to care when to
use form post- ASP.NET generates all necessary client script and such
event will get posted to web server at the right time (e.g. when the
button is clicked), so each form is a class, each control is member of
the class... Very straight forward, I think most GUI based OO program
obeys the same syntax approach as well.

> ... also to allow a more easy to develop platform (I really dont like 
> to keep going back and forth on the ZMI to build up my projects, I 
> want to do all things offline and then test things at once) ... is 
> there something out already, or my thoughts is just so different with 
> you guys that no one think its a good way to do web development?

You might be interested in Python Products.  This is how you add new
objects to Zope, but if you want to you can create whole applications
this way.  The development cycle for these is (can be) much more
offline, though you'll obviously need to test them in a Zope install to
validate the UI.

*Agree- in fact I am looking at Zclass as well... Think that might be a
way to go as well... However that one sounds quite complicate to the
other end...

Zope can be thought of as a RAD tool.  Building up apps through the ZMI
*can* be a hassle, but if it's really *that* much of a pain, it's quite
possible you're missing how much Zope is willing to do for you.  Again,
maybe a trivial example of *what* you're trying to do would give us
enough material to show how Zope might improve on the process.

* hey I can tell... At least no other linux based web platform provides
such great session handling and error logging facilities...
* I think afterall I might use Zope as well... Python itself is a good
reason to implement... But I really hope someone would give more
enhancements to the python web development... It has very good potential
if being implemented in good terminology...

Keep in touch :P
William

HTH,

Dylan