[Zope] RE: Re: Disgraceful

Sat Sep 25 09:15:41 EDT 2004

From: "Chris McDonough" <chrism at plope.com>

> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 18:28, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:
>
> > You typed it in wrong. If you click the URL I provided above, Google
> > searches for 'zope sessions'. You obviously searched for
'zope+sessions'.
> > Plus signs in URLs are spaces.
>
> FWIW, when I click on the provided URL I don't see the Session chapter
> of the Zope book as any direct result until the 27th link.  And it's the
> one at ZopeWiki.org, which isn't really "canonical".  I find this
> strange, given that Google is typically so good at this kind of thing
> and given that you apparently see different results.
>
> Regardless, I can sympathize with both sides of this argument.  I have
> been on both sides in the past.  IMO:
>
> - the questioner should try to provide a roundup of the things
>   he has already tried and might try soon ("I tried X, I tried Y,
>   neither of them worked, I am considering doing Z, is that a good
>   idea?" and so forth.)
>
> - when a questioner gets a response that isn't satisfactory and
>   feels compelled to reask, he should state exactly why the original
>   response was unsatisfactory.  "That doesn't seem right" is not
>   a good explanation of why something is unsatisfactory.  A better
>   one would be "that doesn't work because it causes X...".
>
> - if a responder doesn't feel like he has to provide a detailed
>   answer because it's an RTFM question, it would be nice of him to
>   give a URL or another detailed description of where in TFM
>   to look.  If he doesn't have the time to do this, he might
>   consider not responding at all.  OTOH, sometime the slightest
>   clues are useful, so it's somewhat of a judgment call.
>
> - a responder should be courteous and not harsh.  This is just
>   normal human interaction.  Being smart about a subject does not
>   itself give you a license to be discourteous to others.  OTOH, IT
>   people in general have a somewhat well-deserved reputation as
>   being obstreporous; this is mostly because (like the Dutch ;-)
>   they typically lack tact.  This comes across on maillists as well
>   as in real life.  Most of the time it's not malicious, it's just
>   more efficient than actually taking the time to be courteous.
>   Germans seem to exhibit this behavior more frequently than other
>   contributors. ;-)  If you understand this, you can usually get
>   along quite well with them.

+ 1

Just to testify on the evolution of the list's mood, there was a time when
we were recognized as one of the most friendly OS community, meaning times
when "read the source Luke  :) " could've been taken as the worst response.
I understand to frequent responders. They have the Zen, they are quite
generous, and they have the right to not to answer to how to deal with a
cold. On the other hand I also understand the urgency of some doubts, even
though they were about fully documented subjects. As we all agree that to
learn Zope is quite a hike, sometimes newbies need a quick response ir order
to continue the hiking. Sometimes you just can't stand in the middle of a
river to read a map.

So I agree to Chris' guidelines.  :)

Ausum

> > > The point is to say where to find the information is "obvious" is
> > > clearly subjective.
> >
> > I think searching Google for 'zope sessions' is reasonably objective.
> >
> > >> I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way':
> > >> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> > >
> > > I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not follow?
> >
> > >From the 'Before you ask' section:
> >
> >   "Before asking a technical question by email, or in a newsgroup,
> >    or on a website chat board, do the following:
> >
> >    1. Try to find an answer by searching the Web.
> >    2. Try to find an answer by reading the manual.
> >    3. [snip]"
> >
> > > By the way, did you happen to see the part about how to answer them?
> > > There is a lot of good stuff there like: [snip]
> >
> > Sure, I've read that too. Doesn't really apply here as he *got* a good
> > answer to his first question, then proceeded to ask further questions
that
> > he could have found the answers to himself with little effort, at which
> > point I'm not inclined to insist that further courtesies (and they *are*
> > courtesies, not an entitlement) be extended. Being polite as you waste
> > other people's time doesn't earn you any points.
> >
> > So he got a 'Read the API' answer (not even remotely a flame), which
> > elicited a 'nicely done' comment from Jonathan, prompting a *very* rude
> > response from Asad, after which Andreas gave a polite rejoinder, at
which
> > point you started jumping down people's throats for not spoon-feeding
him
> > the answer he wanted.
> >
> > Do you *want* the remaining experts to stop frequenting the general Zope
> > list?
> >
> > -- Michael Bernstein
> >
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