[Zope] Re: Disgraceful

Tue Sep 28 10:52:47 EDT 2004

I am an experienced software developer, looking for a content management
system for clients that do not have one and cannot afford the big guns.  I
started looking at Zope seriously Friday, and signed up for the mailing
list.  The very first thread I explored was the long, bitter stream of
replies to "Disgraceful."

I've been around long enough to know that this thread is probably not
representative of the entire Zope community.  But, if the Zope
development/support community members want their product to be a long-term
viable option, patience with new users -- including even lazy or stupid new
users -- is going to be a part of that.

I only say this because I've seen good software whither and die, despite the
intentions, dedication, and competence of the developers.  I'd like to see
Zope continue to succeed.

What I've seen of Zope in action so far is pretty impressive.  The Zope book
is also impressive, but still obviously a work in progress.  There aren't a
lot of on-the-shelf books with recent publication dates, so help here is
vital for new users.

I understand and sympathize completely with the frustrations of dealing with
users who have not read the manual, who have "forgotten" how to do
something, whatever.  I have gotten an email from a vice-president of
special projects asking for a CD of the Internet.  But the answer isn't
anger; I've learned my knuckles aren't harder than the monitor.

Perhaps a newbies list would help, as suggested below.  Maybe more of us
should help with documentation, and with answering questions.  But public
humiliation is a self-defeating strategy; it hinders progress for all.  I'll
stop now, because I feel a political rant coming on.....

-----Original Message-----
From: Sophia Grimm [mailto:sophiagrimm at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 1:20 PM
To: Tiller, Michael (M.M.); Michael R. Bernstein; zope at zope.org
Subject: RE: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful

Hmmm... Couple of comments about etiquette and
documentation...

I'm a newbie programmer (not just a newbie to zope),
and I usually spend hours researching any topic before
I ever ask a question.

That said, I find the zope and plone web sites
unhelpful to the extreme. I've read the zope book
through, as well as other zope manuals, but I usually
need practical examples. When I google search for
help, I don't always know what to look for, or what I
try to look for is not what I find. That doesn't mean
that the writers aren't doing a great job -- you are!
But not everyone has good search skills, and not
everyone will know how to interpret and apply what is
written.

A newbies list would serve one terrific purpose:
Anyone who is on the list to answer questions --
presumably the same people who do it now, like Dieter
and Andreas -- would understand that the subscribers
will include people like me, who try our best and
still need a lot of support. Anyone who doesn't want
to deal with that can choose not to subscribe or
answer.

Unfortunately, there will always be an oversupply of
people with questions and far too few to answer. For
those who do support us, we hope you know that we
appreciate what you do. Please be patient with us!

All that aside, email is a horrible medium for
communication. What you write can be interpreted so
many ways, depending on language, culture, and
individual perception. So it's not necessary to use
rude words to come across that way. I'm sure that
(except possibly within the current thread) no one
*meant* to be rude.

BTW, I intended this email to be a friendly  =-) 
commentary.

--- "Tiller, Michael (M.M.)" <mtiller at ford.com> wrote:

> 
> > From: zope-bounces at zope.org
> [mailto:zope-bounces at zope.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Subject: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful
> > 
> > The Zope Book chapter on sessions is currently the
> sixth result here:
> > http://www.google.com/search?q=zope+sessions
> 
> Really?  For me, this is the sixth result:
> 
>
http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/resetting_zopes_session_timeout
> .html
> 
> I'm assuming that is not what you meant.
> 
> Interestingly, I couldn't find the Zope book in the
> first six *PAGES* of
> results.  Perhaps Google gives you a different
> result than me for some
> reason, but I entered it just like you typed it.
> 
> The point is to say where to find the information is
> "obvious" is
> clearly subjective.
>  
> > I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the
> smart way':
> > http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> 
> I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not
> follow?
> 
> By the way, did you happen to see the part about how
> to answer them?
> There is a lot of good stuff there like:
> 
> Be gentle. Problem-related stress can make people
> seem rude or stupid
> even when they're not.
> 
> Reply to a first offender off-line. There is no need
> of public
> humiliation for someone who may have made an honest
> mistake. A real
> newbie may not know how to search archives or where
> the FAQ is stored or
> posted.
> 
> If you can't help, don't hinder.
> 
> Ask probing questions to elicit more details.
> 
> While just muttering RTFM is sometimes justified
> when replying to
> someone who is just a lazy slob, a pointer to
> documentation (even if
> it's just a suggestion to Google for a key phrase)
> is better.
> 
> > - Michael Bernstein
> 
> --
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
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