[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

[Jim Fulton]

Jonathan Cyr wrote:
> Yoohoo,
> 
> ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction 
> to Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can 
> support/maintain a thing. 

Exactly.  I want you to use Zope even if you aren't in a position to maintain
it yourself.

 > I can read the list, and try to help folks
> with questions that I've experienced... that's the support that can be 
> offered at my skill level.

Which is extremely valuable.

> If that's not enough... fine...  drop ZClasses, then DTML (you know, its 
> next)... and all the folks in this boat with me.

(There are no plans to deprecate DTML.  It is even supported in Zope 3.)

> ZC should decide whether the benefits of ZClasses for low-end developers 
> match against the hurdles to keeping it with the newer Zope releases.  
> If they don't see a need for this skill-level type of tool in Zope's 
> feature list, they will pay down the road... Growth is king, even for 
> Zope, who grew this platform?  Growth means newbies, right?  What 
> elements got Zope to where it is?  Could ZClasses be on that list?  Why?

Vey well said.  I think this is, but should not be underestimated.

This is something I think about a lot.  I think Zope needs to support
developers and non developers.  Zope 2 was weak in supporting developers.
Over the years, new techniques and technologies have evolved to make
Zope development better for proffessional developers, but we still
need the non-developers.

> And seeing comments like...
> 
> - "Move to Zope Python Products" - you cant see the skill differences 
> between OOP & Zope's API vs. ZClasses
> 
> - "Use the Archetypes/CMF/Plone setup" - UML training? the CMF API and 
> Plone underpinnings, easy?
> 
> - "Maintain it yourself then" - Update very slick code within Zope's 
> flexible and aging API, with ZODB API too?  Maintain it...Yeah sure, 
> hows this afternoon.
> 
> ... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate 
> Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't 
> any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, 
> and the horse I rode in on.

:)

This list is for you.  While you shouldn't have to maintain Zope yourself,
you *do* need to be vocal about what you want.

(Of course, at some point,  work needs to get paid for. If someone wants
  a new feature that the developers don't want to develop out of the
  goodness of their hearts or even an old feature that no one wants to
  maintain, someone may have to be willing to fund some development.
  I'm not asking for this in this case.)

> And so here's the confession... "Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2 
> years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP 
> tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server.  
> I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list 
> opportunities present themselves."

And that support is greatly appreciated!

Jim

-- 
Jim Fulton           mailto:jim at zope.com       Python Powered!
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