[Zope] Re: Presentations Available

[Chris Withers]

Rob Miller wrote:
> this strikes me as a bit unfair.  to quote stefan holek from a post on 
> plone-dev earlier today, most reported migration problems are due to:
> 
> - Upgrading to Zope 2.8 without reading the release notes.

*shrugs* I've not had need to read he release notes yet, what am I missing?

> - Third party products that are not yet fully compatible
>   with Plone 2.1 and/or Zope 2.8.

Well yes, see comments about the state of third party products, 
particularly for Plone elsewhere...

> - Sites that have customized parts of Plone they shouldn't
>   have touched in the first place.

Was there anything to tell them not to? People often code by copying and 
pasting and far too often Plone seems to give the impression "well, you 
shouldn't do this, but we have to, so we are" riding roughshod over 
their own APIs, not to mention those of Zope, and using some truly 
horrendous coding style which people who base their projects on Plone 
unfortunately learn from...

> - Plone Team stupidity.

no comment ;-)

> as for the broken products, that is a pandemic within the open source 
> community, hardly unique to plone.  

*shrugs* this is more philosophical and which I covered in the talk. 
Plone has been "all inclusive" in its welcoming to potential developers, 
this builds a a great community at the expense of software quality, 
imnsho...

> follow-through.  the suggestion you make in your talk of having a peer 
> rating process for add-on products is a good one, certainly, and one 
> that's been discussed before, but getting there takes some effort.

...probably worth someone senior in the Plone community making that 
effort though ;-)

> AT's problems are entirely recognized by those of us who use it heavily, 
> and i can assure you that the AT developer pool has no intention of 
> continuing to pile more cruft on top of a shaky stack. 

Really? ;-)

> the first iterations of this will probably also have some warts.  but 
> please don't assume that plone/AT developers don't see the same problems 
> that you see, and that they aren't willing and able to learn from their 
> mistakes.

Yes, but there are simple to fix bugs and horribleness in AT that have 
been there over multiple releases now, your comments don't really gel 
with that reality...

Chris

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