[Zope] RE: Java vs Zope

[J Cameron Cooper]

Sam Stainsby wrote:

> One thing is static type checking: developers detecting type errors at
> compile time, rather than some hapless user running into it at run time
> (i.e. after release to the public). I see many of those types of errors
> in Zope and Plone products, particularly as the API of one product
> changes and another product tries to use it. With Java, such
> problems are likely to be detected at compile time. Runtime errors produce a negative public
> perception of software products, as well as being dangerous in critical
> systems. Pervasive use of unit testing will help avoid such problems, but
> that level of discipline is hard to find in Zope/Plone projects (but well
> done those who do it!). On the downside, static type checking makes Java
> less flexible, and requires more programming effort, and of course there
> is that tedious compilation step.

I worked in Java for web apps (as well as a few halting tries at 
GUIs--ick!) before Zope. I expected type problems because of the lack of 
static checking; however, I have not found it to be a problem. I don't 
think programs are quite as wild and wooly as static typed languages 
assume. I think it's quite acceptable to put the burden of use on the 
programmer instead of the compiler, considering the benefits; that's 
what he's thinking about anyway, no?

My main problem with Java is that it's a high-friction environment. It 
takes a lot of work to do most things, often because interfaces have 
been abstracted so far (or sometimes because of compiler hoops, but not 
that often.) This is both in code and framework.

For code, go take a look at what it takes to make an XML-RPC call in 
Python and in Java. I had to look this up for writing my book, and it's 
quite disgusting. It all depends on the functionality, of course, but I 
can't think of anything that writes quicker in Java than in Python.

Framework-wise, I found that it took at least three separate helper 
programs to set up an reasonably productive, understandable, and 
maintainable development environment for J2EE, and that's not even 
counting an IDE.

Zope 2 development generally has a lot less friction, and is usually a 
lot higher-level. As a result, I think it's several times faster than 
Java development. Possibly even many times faster. It does seem to make 
up for this by being more mysterious, but you can learn those things in 
time. You can't get rid of all the Java crap. (It's like the Churchill 
joke.)

Zope 3, though I admit I've only played with it glancingly, seems to be 
more J2EE-like in certain respects: there seem to be a lot of things I 
have to touch to get things going. To a certain point, I can deal with 
this, but if there's ever a "ZDoclet"...

		--jcc
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