[Zope] Zope Alternative

[michael nt milne]

>For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally
>Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize
>for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).

You make some very valid, correct points but then also make a very incorrect
assumption as well. I don't believe the original poster is a troll and
neither am I or anyone else who has agreed that this list needs to have some
more class and enlightenment. I've been saying that for quite a while and if
that gets me labelled a troll for some reason then it proves the need for an
attitude change. I think you're flattering yourselves to be honest, if you
believe you have so many 'trolls' posting to your list.

On 11/14/06, Dario Lopez-Kästen <dario at ita.chalmers.se> wrote:
>
> For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally
> Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize
> for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).
>
> Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 04:38 PM:
> >
> > Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time
> > helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it.
> > Thanks, but no thanks...
>
> hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt. Not all
> zope-users have the historical baggage where zope gets treated like a
> second class citizen in the Python community, usually with some gross
> misconception about what zope does as a basis for that.
>
> If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? Will it have
> more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore
> dismisses it? No, probably not.
>
> But us going on like "you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you
> dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away!" is not the way
> either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another
> "zope sucks"-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the
> wild.
>
> I am not defending his misconceptions (if there are any - i haven't
> spent much time reading his wiki, really) and I generally agree that
> spending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understand
> his position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what
> they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetti
> code (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the other
> hand).
>
> Nevertheless, I think we as a community could show some class and style.
> Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not
> like he's going to write a zope fork, in real life; and so what if he
> did, if it was better, then we could probably learn something, if it
> isn't better, nothing will have changed for us.
>
> > This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen
> > for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come
> > with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved
> > will also come in for a similarly hard time...
>
> Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that
> does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope
> works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example.
>
> I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may
> sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our
> attitude that we should be aware of as a community.
>
> /dario
>
> --
> -- -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
> Lyrics applied to programming & application design:
> "emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley
>
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-- 
michael
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