[Zope] Zope Alternative

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Hafeliel wrote:
> My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.
> 
> Here's what I'm hearing:
> 
> [1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully
> incomplete.  Paul, for example, was kind enough to
> point out that the Image class is a descendent of the
> Persistent class.

Woo, what a scoop. It tooks me a few minutes to find this out when I
started playing with Zope...

> I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have
> missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show
> this ancestorage.  In fact, the Persistent class isn't
> listed in Appendix B at all.
> 
> [2] Some of you felt that it is acceptable that Zope's
> "complete docs" are scattered across the web.  I
> disagree.  The Zope Book should be complete if it's
> going to pretend to be the docs for Zope.

I've never seen a "complete" and up to date documentation for any
software - open source or not. At least with Open Source projects you
have the source code...

> The docs for Python, for example, seem to be complete.
>  You might have to surf around a bit to find an
> example that does what you want, but you don't have to
> dig into the source for Python just to find out what
> methods are available to a given class!

> That's not
> acceptable IMHO.

Oh yes ? "not acceptable", huh ? Please, remind us how much bucks you
paid for Zope ? Now go have a look at the licence fees for proprietary
Web Application Servers.

> [3] Many of you have attacked me personally. 
> <sarcasm> Gee, thanks. </sarcasm>  I am not a troll. 
> A troll is a person who takes only a minute to toss a
> match into dry brush so he can watch the fire break
> out.  I, on the other hand, am trying to create
> something.  I'm investing my time by creating a wiki,

There's already a Zope wiki.

(snip non-sens)

> If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by
> all means, do not follow.  Stick with Zope and enjoy
> it, but I personally think that a light-weight
> alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we
> want to do would be better.

You're still showing your ignorance and total lack of understanding of
how Zope works. I have less that 10 years of programming experience, and
was able to address *all* of the "problems" you're complaining about
since my first Zope project (which I started 2 weeks after having done
my first Zope install).

> How big is a Zope install, 20M?  I'm not at my home PC
> at the moment, so I can't check.  I'm betting that all
> the good stuff Zope really needs could fit in 50k. 

Lol.
(snip)

> [5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it
> evolved to be the beast that it is.  Frankly, that's a
> terrible reason to live with a mess.  Sometimes it
> takes starting over to get going in the right
> direction.

Ever heard of Zope 3 ?

> [6] You're right that I'm totally ignorant about Zope

I think there's not much more to say.

> 3.  I've never played with it.  I will try to make
> some time for that.  However, my gripes with the
> original Zope is that there is too much.  I really
> just want the Zope basics.  Adding more to Zope will
> not make me happier.
> 
> That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. 
> Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous
> number of servers.  It already does most everything,
> so why re-invent the wheel?

It seems that you are not only ignorant about Zope.

> As for me, personally, I'm going to press on making a
> Zope alternative.

Python is known to have more web frameworks than keywords. Could it be
possible that you're also ignorant of this ?

(snip)
> 
> So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout
> your insults at my back.  I see no reason to stick
> around a community that treats me like this when I'm
> only trying to help.

You're not "trying to help", you are complaining about things you don't
understand. If what you want is a Apache-integrated server-page system,
you have mod_python + PSP. If you want a lightweight MVC framework, then
either Django, Turbogears, Pylons or web.py are for you. Blaming Zope
for not being what you want is just dumb.

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
développeur
bruno at modulix.org
http://www.modulix.com