[Zope3-dev] Re: Two visions

Terry Hancock hancock at anansispaceworks.com
Tue Feb 28 22:56:33 EST 2006

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:41:08 +0100
Martijn Faassen <faassen at infrae.com> wrote:
> Could you please stop using a new name for Zope 3 or the
> zope package?  You can explain this perfectly well using
> the existing, well established  names.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment.  To me the name
change for Zope 3 seems essential.  I'm not strongly
inclined as to whether "Z" or "Zed" or ? is a good
choice for the name, but I think the google search argument
suggests it should be spelled out rather than an initial.
Also, if you want it pronounced "zed", you'd better spell it
out for us Americans who will otherwise call it

> This is a proposal for the evolution of Zope 3. Zope 3 is
> already going  in this direction.


> This is what we are actually doing with Zope 2 right now,
> starting with  Five on top of Zope 2.7, and continued
> further with Zope 2.8, Zope 2.9  and presumably Zope 2.10
> and beyond. It's nothing new, and it will take  more
> effort and time to get further.


> Renaming this to Zed or Zope 5 is not going to make
> anyone's life  simpler or easier, 

False, IMO.

> nor will it make any
> development go faster than it  does now. Instead we're
> going to confuse everybody with completely  uncalled for
> name changes.

The problem is that "Zope 3" is already very confusing. To
anyone who is not among the Zope cognoscenti, the project
is simply called "Zope" (though nobody knows what the ****
it is!). It then has two versions "2" ="Stable" and

That's okay now, because it's more or less true. However, if
you want Zope3 and Zope2 to co-exist, the names are a
serious problem (from a marketing perspective), because to
the people who matter -- potential new adopters -- there is
tension between two different perceptions, neither of
which is good:

1) The Zope project is hung as the result of a rewrite gone
bad -- the Zope 3 project is eternally in "development"
mode, leaving Zope 2 as a currently viable, but essentially
orphaned project.  "Run from the sinking ship!"

2) Zope2 is dead, Zope3 is the new Zope. But it is hard to
learn and only for serious Python programmers. Zope is just
a serious system-designers' package -- scripters should go
try one of the other frameworks.  "Not for me!"

Yes I know that neither of these perceptions is true. But
you will be engaged in a constant pitched battle against
them if you stick with the existing nomenclature.

If you instead call "Zope2" "Zope5" then you will defeat
these interpretations, but shadow the Zope3 project (the
"old version").  No matter how you spin it, the numbers
imply either age or importance. You must lose the numbers,
unless you really mean them to represent versions.

(As cute as the name "Five" is, I hate "Zope 5".  If you
want to hang on to that idea, then instead rename Zope2
to "Five" (isn't it quickly becoming synonymous with that
package?) and let Zope3 become "Zope").   Mind you, this
suggests renamin "Zope Corporation" to "Five Corporation"
and/or starting a whole new marketing campaign around a new
name (yuck).

I personally like the "Zed" name (but spell it out!),
because it backforms well -- "ZOPE" = "Zed Object Publishing
Environment" so the Z finally stands for something. Or so
you can pretend, anyway.

Meanwhile, Zed would be a toolkit for Python web application

Hmm.  "zed.com" is some kind of British TV site. "zed.org"
is a dead link, but is apparently regitered.

As for the "name change" confusing anyone -- it won't,
because it's not a name change, it's a "fork" (or a
refactoring if you like). The only people affected by this
confusion are the developers themselves and the tightly-knit
core of Zope3 developers -- all people who you can count on
to figure it out no matter how confusing it is.

The ones you can't afford to confuse are the new adopters,
and they will find the present situation more confusing,

Of course, I'm just a user of Zope, not a core
developer, but perhaps this makes me more aware of the
market I'm talking about.  I certainly do encounter some
confusion when I try to explain the Zope situation to other


Terry Hancock (hancock at AnansiSpaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com

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