workingenv is dead WAS [Zope3-Users] Eggs and classic instance homes, again... (was Re: Eggs, workingenv.py, and 'classic' instance homes)

[Gael Pasgrimaud]

Hi,

workingenv sucks. use virtualenv. It solve a lot of problems:

    http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/10/10/workingenv-is-dead-long- 
live-virtualenv/

Cheers,

--
Gael

Le 8 nov. 07 à 01:24, Jeff Shell a écrit :

> The last time I was active on this list was back in mid-august. I was
> fighting an uphill battle to try to figure out how to migrate our
> software to 'Eggs'. I ultimately had to abandon the process as there
> was just too much real work to be done, and I was getting conflicting
> answers about how to move forward. Actually, I couldn't get much help
> from the community at all. I apologize for the crankiness of this
> email. The last time I tried to get help on this topic was an
> excercise in sheer frustration. Since then, the gulf I've worried
> about seems to have gotten even bigger, and I'm feeling very stressed
> right now.
>
> So now I see all that's going on with Zope 3 and I still don't
> understand a thing about how to move forward. We have about twelve
> active customers deployed on Zope 3, on top of one or two large
> frameworks that we've built on top if Z3. We still use the basic
> 'instance home' layout. We don't use eggs - we just check things out
> directly into the instance home. Even stuff from the Zope community,
> because it's easier to do that than to even get workingenv or any of
> these other things running.
>
> I'm still lost about what to do. Grok is of no use to us at the
> moment. Many of these apps have been up and running for longer than
> Grok's been alive. Is there any kind of migration documentation out
> there? Or have these new ways of doing things been in use for so long
> that most people have just rolled along with them? I just don't have
> the time. I scarcely have time to keep up with the lists (which is
> obvious since I haven't read a thing for nearly three months).
>
> I'm going to resume my conversation here, responding to myself.
>
> August 16, 2007, Jeff Shell wrote:
>>> Jeff Shell wrote:
>>>> But now I'd like to be able to install that into "classic" zope 3.3
>>>> instance homes, trying to be as unobtrusive as possible.
>>>
>>> How have you installed other packages before? I suspect by just  
>>> dumping
>>> their source in INSTANCE/lib/python. Any reason not to continue  
>>> to do that?
>>
>> Because I feel like we're falling further and further behind, or at
>> least trapped in our own little world.
>
> Yep, this is becoming even more true. We're now even further behind.
>
>> But yes, this is how we did it. I ended up writing most of
>> rocketbuild/rockout (our Rake-ish tool) because of this. There are a
>> lot of external tools out there that we still don't use because we
>> don't have the time to deal with the headache (made minor by
>> `rockout`, but still present) of dumping sources into lib/python. For
>> internal stuff, it's not so bad.
>
> I want to get away from this (using source control as distribution
> mechanism). Eggs and buildout are supposed to help here, but
> ultimately it was easier to roll our own tool as we just could not
> figure out how to apply them to our configurations.
>
> We're about to do a massive server upgrade, which would be a good time
> to sneak in new deployment practices.
>
>> The longer we avoid whatever is going on with setuptools and  
>> buildout,
>> the harder it will be to migrate. It's hard enough already.
>
> Yep. Feels even harder now, but probably because they cause me so much
> stress just by looking at them.
>
>>> That seems backward. If you want to install an package into a  
>>> "classic"
>>> environment, it doesn't seem that surprising you'll also have to  
>>> do it
>>> the "classic" way...
>>
>> It doesn't seem entirely backward. I mean, it does. But at the same
>> time... I just don't know how it's all supposed to work. But if we
>> keep doing things in the 'classic' way without trying to step  
>> forward,
>> then I fear we'll stay this way forever because it's already scary
>> enough peeking over the hill at how buildout and all of that stuff
>> works and how different it is from how we've done things. I don't  
>> want
>> the gulf to get bigger, because I think that with our plans for  
>> growth
>> and for a more distributed deployment server setup, 'buildout' will
>> help tremendously.
>>
>> I'm just trying for baby steps right now, because it feels like we've
>> still got a long way to go to get to anything better.
>>
>> I saw mention of 'workingenv' in your book, so I assumed it was or is
>> possible to easily have instance homes with locally managed eggs.
>> Shouldn't it be?
>
> Still have a long way to go. Still have no answers for what to do or
> how to start migrating. Some of our problem is caused by the stupidity
> of CVS, which will go away when we migrate to Git.
>
> Is there going to be a Zope 3.4, for real this time? Will it offer the
> clues I'm looking for? 'zopeproject' says 'You can start a new
> Zope-based web application from scratch with just two commands'. But
> what about those of us who have started many many Zope based web
> projects?
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff Shell
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