It is really a painful thing to do without. I realize I can add this capability to factories of my own objects but I don't want to have to create my own versions of dtml-document and everything else just to ensure that a creation date is kept. I've tried using transaction logs but this is very dodgy for the following reasons. 1) An object can be created by many different methods. Its guess work working out which created the object. 2) The odb can be packed and then you've just lost your creation date. Can anyone give a good reason not to include this property as a standard for all ZODB objects? ---- Dylan Jay Tel: +61 2 9886-8961 Avaya Communication FAX: +61 2 9352 9224 Level 5, 15 Talavera Road Mobile:+61 409 606 171 Nth Ryde, NSW, 2113 ICQ: 520341 AUSTRALIA